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MidnightRunner

EU2 Zeus Ops Feedback/Discussion Thread

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Hi all,

I know I arrived late but I still had a lot of fun at yesterdays Zeus Op. I'm looking forward to next weeks event and to keeping this going for quite some time. 

If you have any feedback, suggestions or anything related to the Zeus Ops please post it here.

 

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From my point of view the mission went very well, we had some teething issues but that is to be expected from the first mission in a new format.

Some Items I noted:

 

Communication

This is still something to be worked on. This will likely take trial and error to best design a system to allow efficient comms between squads/command/vortex.

I think a lot of the problem we had was that there were too many voices and not enough listening, this again is likely a result of this being the first mission and I imagine people will get better at this in the coming weeks.

 

Mission Design

I only played the second mission and enjoyed it a lot, I felt the number of enemies as about right. we assaulted the middle of the base so we had enemies all around and it felt like it, but it was never over the top. 

 

Platoon Structure

We definitely need a platoon element which will likely include a platoon command, platoon medic and possibly a FAC. This will allow each squad lead the ability to focus on their squad only. It will also allow for more organised and free communication.

 

again can't wait for the next mission. See you next Sunday

 

 

 

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I was able to fully experience only the first mission since my internet choked during start of the second one, but still I have to say I really enjoyed my time. As mentioned by Midnight, the main problem was too many voices to handle. It was a bit painful, but still could get used to it. I also really liked our leadership on Alpha team (all props to Minipily). Short and straight orders, keeping everything together as it should be. Definitely looking to play some more missions in the future.

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I'm just going to suggest a few ideas i mulled over on my lunchbreak

 

Platoon structure:

 

Communicating with, and managing more than 2-3 elements can be really taxing. I suggest a structure that looks like this

PLTCo ->2-3 SLs + FAC

SL-> 2-3 FTLs

FTL->4-5 FT member. (members can be split into buddy teams)

Like this, we would end up with (10+1SL) ppl per squad at least, hitting the 40 player mark with 3 squads , command and support elements at minimum and still no more than 6 ppl in one group of communication channel (example: FTL pov --(FTL+4 ppl in group) -//- 1SL+2FTLs+2Medics in TS )

 

TL;DR

think in twos, every commanding element has 2 subordinate elements, FTL has 2 buddy teams, SL has 2 fireteams, PLTCo has SLs and supports, and so on

 

 

 

Communications:

 

Handle group chat for level communication and TS for reaching higher ups, but have to alternate between the levels.

Example:

 

FTLS in group with 4-5 infantry and on TS with SLs    - (TS to reach higher ups)

SLs in group with FAC+PLTCo maybe 1-1 squad medic to be dispatched to the fireteams as needed, - FAC is on TS with vortex and uav    - (group to reach higher ups)

Vortex use group to talk about flight paths and hazards while can get info and recieve missions from FAC on TS   - (TS to reach higher ups)

Armored units can fit in, just treat armored commander as SL or tie them into PLTCo on TS - just so we can alternate again and armored command can be on group

 

 

Either side of the group and TS communication has 6 or less ppl in it, each should be clear enough to convey the necessary information. The localized level communication will be the most used,  the higher up only active when elements need to communicate between each other Aka FTLs have to inform another FTL or SL about threats and unfolding situation, and so on.

 

This could clear up comms, lift the heavy load of SLs doing a lot of work while engaged in a firefight (Mad props to Mini).

 

 

Briefings and conducting the missions:

 

-Briefings were fine, mission live hint after the squad leads report back to command that they finished briefing their teams would have made the start a bit more flowing and more coordinated (instead of move when ready - alpha goes in first bravo still at arsenal), but otherwise i have nothing to add. (If PLTCo is added, the planning and breifing will be in a player's hand anyway, a ready signal can be given to Zeuses from PLTCo to start the mission)

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I think the mission went pretty well, I thoroughly enjoyed the more serious organised structure.

 

My advice for improvement would be:

  • Obviously fix the communication issue so that we have clear communications between just the leaders, then information can be passed down each squad by their respective leader.
  • Add a Platoon Commander, he will be in charge of the overall plan for the infantry squads and armoured assets, as well as placing LZ's and issuing orders for Vortex. He could still give the squads a bit of leniency where required, but overall he will keep things organised over a common plan.
  • MAYBE add a FTL (Fire Team Leader) role to the squads, personally I just opted that one of my men take the role, but perhaps a chosen role for this would promote the usage of them more. However, given the squads current size of 8, if you add a FTL, I would suggest adding another man to bring the squad to a healthy 10 rather than a odd 9. But, 10 is about the max I'd say, going upwards of about 12 men in a squad is starting to get too large. But again, that is IF you add a FTL, it isn't needed if we just recommend the SL's to pick a man.
  • Perhaps also the Platoon Commander, there could be a FAC (Forward Air Controller), however I think given the fact we are not using a radio mod, this won't really be an issue. Especially given the fact that Vortex needs not communicate too often.
  • For briefings, as Johnson stated in the debrief, perhaps an overall briefing at the beginning of the mission in a main hall could be good to give everyone a brief idea of the mission, then once that is discussed, have a more in depth brief with the main leaders.

 

I suppose a good element for Platoon would be:

  • Platoon Command
  • Platoon Medic (he could also be in charge of setting aid stations on larger missions)
  • Platoon FAC (If needed, but again, without a radio mod I don't think it's absolutely needed unless our mission will mainly revolve around a Vortex usage)

 

Overall the mission was really fun, I for one also enjoyed taking an impromptu Platoon Commander role over the mission, It's something I enjoy doing knowing I can give the knowledge and advice to the newbies.

 

One thing I would like to see however, is perhaps more of a logistical usage. I can understand the want to keep the mission going a bit quicker and having an arsenal to replenish everyone's ammo. But perhaps having Vortex or maybe a logistical team who can set up encampments where ever (maybe with the help of a zues) would bring a fresh bit of gameplay to the game. This would also mean that Platoon Command can choose where he wants the camp and having the Logistical team work alongside perhaps Vortex and Zues to get it done. This Logistical Team could also perhaps be a Weapons Team when not being used for Logistical support, and perhaps use Artillery or Mortars. 

 

Astounding job from Bravo, they may have lacked some of the organisation, formation work and perhaps communication of my team initially. But, given their overwhelming task, their teamwork and perseverance prevailed and I was amazed how well it went for them. It was a pleasure to work with their leader, whom I found to be one of the best squad leaders I've worked with and that's coming from an AWE/EU3 Veteran since day 2 of its launch back in 2014. I mean this with full sincerity, you did great. My only advice to give, make sure your men are safe in buddy teams and try not to have them clustered up so much as one big group. This is especially useful when you are in CQC, which you did go into numerous times and unfortunately you missed a few enemies on the buildings which could've been fatal. Just make sure you dedicate some men to go door-kicking and get the buildings fully clear. Other than that, great job and a good job to your FTL who kept me informed when you couldn't.

 

Alpha also did a great job, we just got unlucky during the last assault on the main airfield. Part of this was down to some poor luck but also the fact I misjudged my attack and it unfortunately led to the death of much of my men. Apologies for that, I did suffer a bit of combat stress from all the leading so it made my decisions start to falter in minor details. Another good reason however, to add an overall leader like a Platoon Commander.

 

Good work to the vehicle crew, there could have been a bit more I would have liked from them, however that is not their fault. It's mainly just down to the fact that I was too disconnected from Bravo's fight and I was unable to correctly deduce the best plan of action for them, but the vehicle's fire support was incredibly useful and a big confidence boost to the men on the field. Just having that Marshall with us on the AAC was a big enough confidence boost to Alpha to make a large push down the airfield.

 

Also thanks to the Vortex teams for running the reinserts, you kept Alpha with a stable number of men even during our most critical moments and I can understand that it wasn't easy getting close with that Tigris and Armata's cannon having a grid lock over most the airfield.

 

Overall, really fun mission and I'm so pleased to see a large community come together to play as a team. I've been starved of good, organised, serious fun ArmA for quite a while now and I'm pleased to say that EU2 actually satisfied me quite a bit, despite perhaps some of my previous thoughts of how the mission could have gone.

 

Unfortunately, I won't make it to the next one as I'm having a Mini Holiday (pun intended again) and won't be back until Tuesday. I would've really loved to perhaps do a Platoon Lead on that mission but there's always another time. I suppose it gives someone else a chance to lead and perhaps do things the way they'd quick like to do it.

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I would like to see squad leaders make more use of the in game command control (marking wp's/go here/regroup/target assignment). But I also think it could go kind of obsolete if command channel will work again next time.
When i first joined i was squad leader after few minutes bc everyone left my squad (don't laugh please lol). I had trouble with the not working command channel and someone suggests TS for workaround. I've been roasted for asking for advice in the alpha channel at ts, as if i'm not knowing how to use anything in arma. And that happened during the (idle) time between these missions... 
I had problems to get clear instructions/advice for supporting my unit in certain situations, so i kept straying around a little. If you want a noob like me to get involved with his weapons (was playing LAT) just offer me clear instructions. Overall enjoyed it a lot. That TS workaround lowered the feel of immersion for me a little. I don't want to have the ts overlay sitting on top just to see who's (of the like 20 people) talking (to me). 
That debriefing was wholesome and gave me goosebumps. I was so proud to be part of that experience. Please do it again. We all learn from that and it's awesome that a game this "old" can give you this joy. 
I hope i can be part of it next time. This will be great!
 

(PS: AhoyWorld people, you guys are awesome. Love you for giving me joy and being part of a great community!)

 

still_alive.png

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just watching the stream, i can confirm, FTLs had no acces to command channel and they shouldn't. I'll try to write up more after i watched the whole thing

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In Alpha we where only using ingame comms and these Radios where hard to manage without benefits like TFAR/ACRE where you just set the command louder than group, seperate the transmissions by speakers, etc. This often led to me not understanding a word of what command or my FTL where trying to say when there was chatter on both channels as they have the same volume and can't be modified individually.

 

Possible Solutions might be:

  • Force TS-usage and have each squad in his own channel -> This way you could just mute TS real quick if you are talking to command via the ingame command-channel and have your FTL/SL louder than the rest of the squad to always be able to hear them even if someone else is talking (This would also help if people are generally transmitting rather quiet).
  • Or if you don`t want to force TS-usage: Have squad-internal comms on the ingame groupchannel but use a dedicated TS-channel as a command-channel for SLs, Vortex and Plat-Co -> This way you could just boost the volume of TS to always be able to hear that channel. But obviously you would loose the advantages of changing the volume of specific people in your squad or being able to mute your squad when talking to command.

Personally I am a fan of the first one because it is the easiest and most convenient/flexible solution as everyone can just use the volume-settings that he likes. Also installing TS isn't really a big hurdle to take for people who want to join and it might make these Zeus-Ops a bit more of a stepping stone towards AWE.

 

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Possible fix for comms:

fireteams in separate groups, FTLs and SL on TS, SL can use command channel. In the current squad setup, it wouldnt really work, since even if the FTL and SL group separated into different "squads" (A1-A2) the SL still have to manage 3 different channels (since he is acting at the moment as an FTL also)

 

For this to work, i think the best course would be to move SL+squad medics to one group, and 2 FT group under him (ASL+AFT1+AFT2 groups) FT1 is general assault team (FTL, AR, ammobearer rifleman, GL, RiflemanLAT), FT2 is special weapons (Heavy AT with ammobearer, HMG team, or sniper squad, or whatever, could be different for each squad or mixed like sniper+heavy at/aa, whatever the mission requirements and squad intended purpose is)

 

This could work with the previously mentioned radio discipline, lift the heavy work from SLs since they would have to manage only 2 teams, not micromanage their own fireteam and get flooded with command channel while in a firefight (SLs would have to manage only the squad medics, send them where they needed, and wont lose 2 squad medics at the same time)

 

Or we can use TFAR, not a terrible thing to start to teach ppl how to download and use mods. Installing TS and a mod aint the end of the world, and it is as close to vanilla as you can get and still amage the communication of 30+ ppl seamlessly. There is a reason TFAR and anno ACRE was made. Certain groups reached the limit of ingame voice communication layout, and we did it too, sort of.

 

Try to solve it valnilla first, the smaller group channels should work, but if it isnt working, should consider TFAR. Less of a mess to make it work than implement a scripted version in a mission which would get mixed up like the command channel disappearing after death (i only assume the scripted one utilizes the ingame customizable channels, but its just a guess)

 

All in all, had fun, and i just want to add, Alpha rules ;)

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Hello AhoyWorld Guys😘

 

For me the game was fantastic for the first time

it is important that we always have a group with an AhoyWorld team leader.

I saw a recording of TWITCH from XWATT yesterday, you can all see how you play (funny because see me playing 😂) but when you see the recording, you don't see too much action like more enemies, we have to walk too much like we come to the misson is then completely past the other group have reached the misson.

I think more needs to be done, but guys, it is my opinion what I think.

 

but for the rest it is also a loved 😍game, I really like the game, the teamwork is much better

I look forward to the next Sunday😉

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A thing that I thought of recently is that we could ditch one of the support assets (either CAS or armor or even both) and have a mobile mortar team instead. Could be great fun. Just an idea though.

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I guess this is the best place to give feedback about Sundays zeus mission.

 

I want to start of by saying that on Sunday I did a piss poor job at squad leading.  Going in I was prepared to do some team-leading but found myself as a squad leader for basically the entire OP.  Because I was initially a team leader I missed some key aspects of the briefing, specifically that armour squad gold was basically under alpha's command.  In addition I found myself task saturated most of the time.  From rewatching the stream I noticed that often people tried to reach me and I did not respond.  In the majority of cases my mind hadn't even realized that someone was trying to talk to me.  On the one or 2 occasions I did register that someone was trying to talk to me but did not respond I was simply too preoccupied to respond.  That's entirely on me.  When I got squad lead I should've taken a moment to sit back, think about what I've now got to do and then systematically do it.  I didn't, I just started to do shit leading to a very unorganized squad.

 

Now for some feedback of the mission.

  • The fog levels and wind levels were insane.  Nobody in their right mind would start an attack in those circumstances.  AI could see you from 800 meters away while you yourself could hardly see 200m in the valleys.  On the hills visibility was a bit better, about 400 meters.  Combine that with multiple static .50s and you're basically doomed.  I could see an insane amount of stuff on my map but when I actually took my laser designator out and looked I couldn't see anything.  On top of that the wind was so strong that smoking any approach to anywhere was impossible.  Leading us to have to run across an open ridge-line, with enemies on both sides that we cannot see nor engage that can see and engage us, to an objective from which we're being engaged but can again not engage ourselves.  
  • The actions of Zeuses needs to be better coordinated.  From rewatching the stream I noticed that multiple zeuses were suppressing the same squad while others were seeing where they could put down mortars to get people to move up.  Suppressing is done to keep people in place, so how can a squad simultaneously be expected to move up?  Also, while the intention of mortars might be to get people to move that's not always how it's perceived.  Getting mortared while only moments before being suppressed, by enemies that cannot be seen or engaged, has no real benefit on gameplay in my personal opinion.  Also, 3-4 rounds will do, no need to put a barrage of 10-15 mortar rounds down, at least not the first time a squad is being mortared at the same position. 
  • There has to be a rule that at the very least 2 people should be in an armour squad before it's allowed to leave.  A single crew armour piece is useless in missions like these because you can't set up on a hill far away and kill everything from a safe distance.
  • Zeuses should be required to partake as players in these missions from time to time.  I feel that it's important that a zeus is put on the receiving end of what they do.

As for a conclusion I feel that Sundays mission would have been more enjoyable if the fog wasn't there and if zeuses were just a bit less heavy handed. 

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  • The fog - when we first started the OP It was at a manageable level, and I set this about 10 minutes before letting people in. I did check if it heavily affected visibility, and it didnt. As for the wind I didn't touch this, and it seemed the more time went on, the fog and wind got increasingly heavier - to which I turned them off on the final objective, as I was surprised as how wind speed was on 100%, and fog was on 70, to which I DID NOT SET TO. TLDR, I thought it would take much longer to get a lot worse.

 

  • There were a lot of Zeus helping yesterday. While I learned this was a good thing, this was a bad thing too. While it helps other admins to focus on if the squads are working (thank you @Lindi appreciate you) it means you have a lot more zeus' controlling units - to a point yesterday where I didn't know who was doing what. I recall a time where I went to control two units, who were both controlled by a Zeus, and then just gave up because there was no other AI around. Now, I try to be as conservative with killing friendlies as I can (you can check the stream if you don't believe me - MOST the time I try to suppress only) I cannot uphold this promise for the other moderators and Spartans that join us. Maybe I will have to set a limit on how many mods and Spartans can Zeus, and I will heavily consider it. Following this, I will look to sanction a set Spartan that was absolutely reckless yesterday, and stop the said Zeus from participating as a Zeus for a certain amount of weeks. I will try to manage them the best I can, and usually, I have one Zeus assigned to the mortar, and they ask me for permission before I fire. I have someone dedicated to making sure when people join in progress they are aware what they need to do, and if they have an SL, That leaves me to watch, and control a few units. This also means that the Zeus that aren't assigned to these jobs have free roam of whatever they want to do. Maybe I will ,limit this to one Zeus, instead of having a few. I feel it is important for a lot of them to play as a player, as they should know how it feels on the receiving end to get continuously slaughtered, and for this very reason is why I try to be as conservative as I can.

 

  •  I feel you are correct about Armour squad having at least a 2 man team minimum, and I will look at making that a rule.

 

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I'll just say a bit of my point on the Zeus op, suppressed you on the kill farm because you were shredding a small force and you would have just steam rolled the place, I don't think that would have been fun for anyone and if left to the AI you folks would have been saying that it was too easy. The fog and wind was not my doing and I even said about the flames on a burning bin looked ridiculous. I have experience in Milsim ops so I DO know what it's like on the receiving end and I've had it a lot worse than you guys on that mission, you have to adapt. There were vehicles available but some person chose to walk every where, totally out of Zeus's hands. An instance when the spacing from the ground was not too good one minute and then the next they're broken up, in fog, probably should of kept rank and closer, I grabbed a straggler that was close and actually ran after a bunch of people who broke off from the main squads and chased them down and instead of firing at me when they seen me they just looked at me with no reaction so I shot them, I even shot at them a few times before they ran into the building so they should have known what was coming. Another point is Alwin was told NOT to take armour out so that's on the ground leaders heads not zeus's. At the end of the day this is a dedicated server for a Zeus mission, it's going to be hard and I expect it to be much harder than an EU1 Zeus mission.

 

Sorry if you thought I was too brutal and I did not intentionally target people, but you have nothing to worry about next op because I will not be having any involvement in EU2 on that one and I will not be involved in any more in the future. Wish you all the best on the next op but it's not for me.

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I've already said this in person to a few zeuses that were present Sunday but I want to stress again that I have no problem with the actions of any one particular zeus.  My problem lies with the compounding effect of all of those actions which, to me, felt heavy handed due to a lack of coordination. 

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We've discussed a few things within the teams on how we can improve, as well as thinking of a few improvements in the mission building / game play /squad requirements. Hopefully we've learned a thing of two for the future!

...and Stan it was a rough night for you, you did well none the less!

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I feel obliged to point out that even though I frequently went down or died (often enough for it to be discussed on stream in the Zeus channel), none of my deaths felt sketchy or unfair to me, hence why I didn't get frustrated.

 

I had lots of fun and lots of direct action, I can't complain about the mission at all.

 

Sure, Killfarm was tricky to take, but not because of Zeus helping the AI or because we made our way there on foot. No, it seemed to me that it was tricky to take because of the overall defensive layout of the site, especially the bunker on the hill. We had to clear that bunker to be able to reach our objective, but the only entrance to it was on a slope facing towards the Killfarm, open to fire from that objective. Getting to that bunker, clearing that bunker and then getting from the bunker down to the Killfarm was the big challenge of that objective, and it felt right to me.

 

Sure, a Hellcat wrecked me after I had just been reinserted, but that could have hit (or missed) anyone; in fact we were lucky that only one of us died there. I wish I recorded that, it was quite epic!

 

Sure, I died a few more times, but that was during room clearing or when I was out in the open during firefights, nothing special. It's these deaths that actually improve my immersion:

CQB is supposed to be dangerous and lethal, unfortunately the AI reacts too slowly to carry this over to gameplay, so dying serves me right for attempting to clear a house all on my own.

Players take risks they know they can only get away with because the AI is predictable, slow and stupid, so I don't see a problem with Zeus bridging exactly that gap and thus making these missions more tactical and teamplay-oriented. In my opinion, the more Zeus(es), the less gap - brilliant, as long as it doesn't turn into PVP.

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Thank you @ansin11 I'm very happy you feel that way! I must confess I felt a little bad when the chopper crashed into you, that was just so random. :)

Finding the balance between making the mission challenging enough to be fun, yet not too hard is a fine balance which we are constantly trying to maintain. I also want to assure to everyone that we try to make the mission seem immersive and more realistic that playing against AI, while taking great care in not to kill anyone outright. Personally I'm glad this discussion is being had and also think it should be ongoing.

P.S, I knew the kill farm would be tricky while building it! :)

 

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Alpha worked very well tonight, especially during the first assault on the Vehicle Pool. Being able to focus on command chat and FSG while @Jenkins coordinated a beautiful attack with his team was a really nice experience - my favourite part of the mission!

 

After that it all became more chaotic of course, but in the end it defenitely was a good OP.

Enemy CAS was a bit much though.

 

Big shoutout to @Jenkins for his teamleading! Also to @Kacper for his frequent medical aid ...

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Please Start Reminding Me To Do Changelogs:

 

- [Added] TFAR 

 

- [Tweaked] Weapons On The Ground From Dead Units Can Now Be Picked Up And Used

- [Tweaked] New Difficulty Settings - No Crosshairs, No Mines On the Map, Harder AI, (and much more)

- [Tweaked] Everyone in FSG Can Now Acess The Mortar 

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