Jump to content

EU2 Zeus Ops Feedback/Discussion Thread


MidnightRunner

Recommended Posts

There are a few new mechanics I feel I should make clear to everyone:

 

Arsenal:

For the forseeable future, and unless feedback is entirely negative, the Arsenal will no longer be available for players. Instead, this has been swapped out for custom weapon crates that the Zeus makes before the mission starts. The main reason I have done this is for customisability, as I can choose what gear I want to give each players each week on the fly, without having to make a whole new version for arsenal restrictions. I can limit the gear that you get a spawn, so there might be more of a dependancy for Vortex to do ammol drops. I can also do other little features, such as provide only short range scopes for CQB weeks, and long range scopes for long range combat weeks. The main drawback of this is, you can take whatever you want out of these crates without being stopped by arsenal restrictions. I am going to trust that the team leaders of the squads can micro manage this, and make sure a medic isn't running around with an RPK and a RPG for example, I trust that we will be mature enough to discipline ourselves to the correct gear we should have, and this comes from feedback I have recieved that we should give more freedom to the players.

 

Interrogations and Surrenders:

As you would have seen if you were here last week, with TFAR Zeus can now control units and speak through local chat. This has opened up for roleplaying and dynamic scenarios. A new mechanic I will be adding is that players can force NATO players to surrender, and they can lead them back to the closest respawn point (more about this coming) to gain intel about the current or future missions. This will not happen often, maybe once a mission, maybe twice. I will not use this a lot. If theres ONE player left in a building you are raiding, you can shout "surrender" or the NATO player will shout "I surrender" to let you know they have surrendered. if you are shouting surrender and there is no response, a Zeus is not controlling that unit, therefore they wont hear you. In the case there is silence, just kill the AI. but if a NATO player responds, you can tell them to drop their weapons and vest. some NATO units have suicide vests, and you will know this if they have a vest on them and they are refusing to drop it, or if you look at the unit and go into your scroll wheel, you will see a "boom" option on them. Suicide bombers will be rare, and maybe happen only once a mission, or maybe not at all in the mission. Once you have disarmed the NATO unit, lead him back to the nearest respawn point and that will count as a succesful hostage taken.

 

Respawn Points:

After you have taken an objective, there will now be a respawn point at that objective in place.  At that respawn point there will only be an ammo crate, which will be much more limited than the one at the starting FOB. it's main purpose it to serve as a quick resupply point, and a faster way to insert into the mission. Armour assets and helicopters will still be found at the starting FOB.

 

Civillian Interaction:

In towns there will be a few civillians roaming around. They will either give you intel, run away, or not respond at all. Occasioanlly they may be a little rude if you suddenly approach them too, this will vary from civillian to civillian. It's important rememeber these are civvies, and they will not give you significant intel, as they would have no actual knowledge about the enemy, other than what they can see or a maybe a conversation between two NATO soldiers that they overheard. Do not kill civillians if they dont respond or run away. War Crimes will be severely looked down upon. Civillian interaction should not be a priority, and always listen to your SL if they tell you not to focus on the civillians and instead to focus on the objective.

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

All in all nice changes. But... 

I disagree with the respawn point moving up with each completed objective, because that will make vortex obsolete. It is harder without a competent Vortex, but that will just make us appreciate, if we have one, more. The time that takes reinserts to arrive hightenes the pressure, maybe gives a stressful peak into teamleading for aspiring players who step up until their FTL gets back. I find this rewarding, and risk the assumption it would be more beneficial to even limit the reinserts when we have Vortex to waves. Every 10 minutes or so. But that is a longer discussion. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know I run my keyboard a lot, but somebody has to.

 

I have another suggestion regarding the squad structure, since with the current role setup is a tad bit unfair to SLs, because our SL has to be TL at the same time, which after i experienced that in a friday mission, i can say a really mentally taxing task to handle. My suggested squad role layout is as follows:

 

SL+rifleman(most likely an aspiring member who wants to learn about being an SL)+squad medic

 

2 (or even 3 if we ever reach the peak playercount that can fill 2 squads up) FireTeam under the SL with their respective FTLs  - i figured i should mention the Fireteam consists of FTL + 4 (AT or demo -- grenadier -- rifleman -- AutoRifleman) so at the end of the day a squad would have 3 (SL team) + 5(FT1)+5(FT2) = 13 players - if the SL rifleman is empty, not a problem

 

This way, SL can give objectives to each teams, and trust their FTLs can handle the micro planning, while the SL can focus on command comms and the overall big picture, plan ahead and dispatch the squad medic where he is needed. This would lift the load from the SL, and would open up a new FTL role, and give a chance to an aspiring player (SLs rifleman) to learn about squad leading. Heck, SL can entrust his rifleman to handle a portion of the comms, making the learning process a bit more interesting. I know this would remove the SL team from the immediate firefights a bit, but i feel like this is needed in order to ensure the planning and execution plus the comms dont suffer in the long run.

 

My problem with the current squad role setup is that the SL led team will always struggle behind a bit, because the SL has a lot to deal with first, and just after all that can focus on his fireteam. Plus jugling the comms is a challenge in itself, a lot of information will be lost if the SL has to focus on actual firefights and directing 4+ more men in his team to engage effectively.

 

My suggested setup would provide aspiring players to firsthand experience the SL role and the communication + planning in the SL rifleman slot (whilst lifting the teamleading duty from the SL, giving him enough time to teach and discuss with the aspiring SL); give more autonomus planning to FTLs and trust they will be able to execute the mission given to them.

 

I feel the current squad structure scares off a lot of potentially good SLs since the workload significantly (and might i add, in my opinion unnecessarily) increases when you jump from TeamLead to SquadLead role.

 

I would like to hear other opinions on this one, especially from players who usually take up SL role and the ones who would like to take the role but afraid of it.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...

But the idea of limited items in the ammo crates would be useless in that case. You die, you lose the gear in the field, unless somebody picks it up. I know its a minor inconvenience, but logistically more challenging to live with the current iteration, all the while providing smaller team objectives for example retrieving a mission critical gear from a previous ambush position, which facilitates zeus built skirmishes to further enhance the whole scenario with minimal creative capacity overload. Not to mention this current setup without the ability to save/load the gear encourages players to actually value their virtual lives a bit more. I'm in favor of the current setup.

In my experience on the friday and sunday missions mostly as TL who goes down first is as follows. I've been downed more times than i care to count, but i can count on one hand how many times i had to respawn and go gear up again. As i've said, minor inconvenience, a sacrifice on the altar of exciting gameplay where every peak carries the risk of losing the gear and the opportunity for support assets (like medics, engineers, vortex, maybe someday a full LOGI squad) to participate more often.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My routine for the last two sundays (Bravo Autorifleman) was:

  • Remove NVG
  • Remove laser from Mk200
  • Take sidearm
  • Remove all spare magazines for that sidearm from my inventory again
  • Remove two blue smoke grenades
  • Take two white smoke grenades
  • Take backpack
  • Put a third spare belt for the Mk200 into the backpack
  • Take binoculars or variation thereof

On every single respawn. I don't see the gameplay value in that.

 

I don't mind getting my kit from a limited supply box. None of my gear is special or rare; the only things I looted the past two weeks are FAKs and grenades. But I do mind going through the same tedious process of combining the provided basic items into the gear I want to use every time I die. Plus Arma's boxes don't come with the nice item categories the Arsenal has, so there is always a bit of searching involved. And then I have to call Overlord mid-mission because there are no 6.5 mm 200 round belts left at base.

 

All I'm hoping for is to be able to get my stuff from the box, hit "Save" somewhere, go out and fight, then die, then hit "Load" and be reset to the loadout I put together in the beginning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

easy fix, don't die. :)

 

On the topic of limited ammo boxes, if you don't see the 6.5 200rnd belts in the box, thats probably because all taken, by calling Overlord and actually getting the ammo in the box would be defeating the purpose of limited equipment. Btw there was a full fledged ammo resupply in the hidden cave this week, you could have easily resupply there, just need some more communication (AR informing TL or SL that he needs ammo, SL asks around command if resupply is possible, Command would have told you that we kept the ammoboxes captured from NATO available for that specific reason or get vortex on the resupply)

Would have been much more involving for everyone, and much more immersive than asking for the hand of god to solve it for you. Not picking on you, just stating that from my point of view, even figuring out how to solve these needs-do we have ammo on the field, can we share inter squad ammo distribution, can we get vortex on it, and lastly, if all else fails ask for zeus help  (altough this process is much more time consuming than instant hand down from a zeus but) is much more enjoyable and engages more players. I hope you see my point how this limited arsenal system can and should improve player involvement if we as a community get behind it and instead of going the easy way buy into it and adapt to the situation that arises.

 

There is no default loadout, everyone prefers different things even in the same role. You can always pre-pack backpacks and vests (known as go-bags), drop em down somewhere and head out.

 

Maybe separating the ammoboxes by type would be beneficial in this case, so if you need NVGs you run to the equipment box and you dont have to scroll through countless weapon and ammo types. I dont have a better idea to keep your searching and re-gearing time as low as possible in this current system without defeating it's initial purpose.

 

Make do with what you have. It would have become a mission for your team to go get your gear back or capture appropriate combat gear for you to be more effective.

Save/load would instantly defeat the purpose of this, hence no reason to have a zeus think about what should be in the box and how many of em. Let alone tediously pick the items and make the box in the first place. So no reason to keep the limited equipment and waste time and effort making them, so why not default back to arsenal then? I dont see the point in this, still prefer the current system. Maybe it will make you value your life virtual life a little bit more. To lessen the burden, everyone could spawn with default radio and uniform, thats it, so you dont have to drop gear and pick up on respawn, just pick what you can from the box, even if its not the most preferred gear thats left in the ammoboxes. I hope this description demonstrates how little things can create developing situations and requires less creative input from zeuses yet still giving goals to the players to work toward as a unit.

 

I know, we as a community can get better at these things, amongst many other things we should get better at.

Give it time, facilitate those aformentioned player involving moments by communicating, maybe in pre-mission wait times, pack multiple bags for the appropriate role you have to save time mid mission.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok, I think I can accomodate for both parties here:

 

my suggestion. We add the save gear to map > settings. You use it if you don't want to go through the hassle of getting the kit everytime you respawn, or you don't use it if you want play purely for the immersion. It's down to the player then if they want to take the more arcade or realism route.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gambit:

I can't help but die when Vortex explodes with me sitting in the passenger compartment ...

 

It seems to me that we have different views on how gear is supposed to be provided. The way I understand @Xwatt, he removed the Arsenal to be able to costumize what's available at base without having to edit the very unwieldy hardcoded .sqf files that handle the Arsenal limitations.

Spoiler
On 8/30/2019 at 6:23 PM, Xwatt said:

Arsenal:

For the forseeable future, and unless feedback is entirely negative, the Arsenal will no longer be available for players. Instead, this has been swapped out for custom weapon crates that the Zeus makes before the mission starts. The main reason I have done this is for customisability, as I can choose what gear I want to give each players each week on the fly, without having to make a whole new version for arsenal restrictions. I can limit the gear that you get a spawn, so there might be more of a dependancy for Vortex to do ammol drops. I can also do other little features, such as provide only short range scopes for CQB weeks, and long range scopes for long range combat weeks. The main drawback of this is, you can take whatever you want out of these crates without being stopped by arsenal restrictions. I am going to trust that the team leaders of the squads can micro manage this, and make sure a medic isn't running around with an RPK and a RPG for example, I trust that we will be mature enough to discipline ourselves to the correct gear we should have, and this comes from feedback I have recieved that we should give more freedom to the players.

This seems consistent with the public approach to these Zeus missions, seeing how our limited supplies included 20 rangefinders but 0 binoculars as well as an endless amount of Mohawks.

 

@Xwatt:

Adding a "Save" option to the map settings would allow people to save in the field, something I don't think we want. I'd say just put an addAction on the equipment box in base.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/1/2019 at 11:00 AM, Gambit said:
Spoiler

 

I have another suggestion regarding the squad structure, since with the current role setup is a tad bit unfair to SLs, because our SL has to be TL at the same time, which after i experienced that in a friday mission, i can say a really mentally taxing task to handle. My suggested squad role layout is as follows:

 

SL+rifleman(most likely an aspiring member who wants to learn about being an SL)+squad medic

 

2 (or even 3 if we ever reach the peak playercount that can fill 2 squads up) FireTeam under the SL with their respective FTLs  - i figured i should mention the Fireteam consists of FTL + 4 (AT or demo -- grenadier -- rifleman -- AutoRifleman) so at the end of the day a squad would have 3 (SL team) + 5(FT1)+5(FT2) = 13 players - if the SL rifleman is empty, not a problem

 

This way, SL can give objectives to each teams, and trust their FTLs can handle the micro planning, while the SL can focus on command comms and the overall big picture, plan ahead and dispatch the squad medic where he is needed. This would lift the load from the SL, and would open up a new FTL role, and give a chance to an aspiring player (SLs rifleman) to learn about squad leading. Heck, SL can entrust his rifleman to handle a portion of the comms, making the learning process a bit more interesting. I know this would remove the SL team from the immediate firefights a bit, but i feel like this is needed in order to ensure the planning and execution plus the comms dont suffer in the long run.

 

My problem with the current squad role setup is that the SL led team will always struggle behind a bit, because the SL has a lot to deal with first, and just after all that can focus on his fireteam. Plus jugling the comms is a challenge in itself, a lot of information will be lost if the SL has to focus on actual firefights and directing 4+ more men in his team to engage effectively.

 

 

 

I believe the squad structure we use currently is the same as Arma 3's vanilla setup, which is very similiar to how the British Army operates infantry sections. (Strange considering NATO is mostly American in A3.)


Which you can see in the following picture;

de13b0270393b827e7215bc01a074580.thumb.png.956652b9c835a12034656b492cd10cfa.png

Obviously subsiding the Section Commander for SL and 2iC for FTL.

 

I do agree that squad leading can be quite taxing, however in my opinion I believe that squad lead is a role that just requires practice and some basic radio discipline within the squad. Whether this is done pre-mission or established hastily in the field shouldn't make much of a difference in terms of workload.

 

For the sake of easing people into leadership roles and making the scenarios less mentally taxing, it could be worth while adopting the American rifle squad structure. (Identical to the setup you mentioned.)

 

As seen here;

94072d0bd8f3813e1f49489dfcc277f9.png.6223eb17ab1faebfcef34a0d705fe542.png

+Adding a CLS to accompany the squad leader.


As you said, it would allow the SL to focus more on Platoon orders/communication between fireteams, rather than have to worry about the rogue rifleman disappearing mid-op to eat noodles (@Wookz). 😁This would also allow the FTL to practice their leadership ability.

 

However, this is down to the staff to decide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't agree more @Jenkins, I suggested the American style because that would, in my opinion, help open up the leadership roles, make them more accessible. With that said, some people would more likely take up those roles and with time, a level of leadership would train itself to work together, which in turn would make the newcomers' experience a bit more seamless, when they jump in a role of a rifleman. In my opinion teaching the community, and providing less daunting environment where they can easily hop in to learn should be the goal for us, so the community can grow. We, as players can do so much, lead by example, and offer help along the way, but ArmA's learning curve is already pretty steep with the million keybinds, adding a communication layer over it with TFAR, for people who just started to participate in these missions can be intimidating.

I've heard too much that nobody wants to step up. I encourage all of you to take on these roles when situation arise, a little bit harder, but get your feet wet, because the appretiation from your fellow lads after, even when you try to carry out a hastily made half-baked bad plan, is worth the effort.

Making the SL role more accessible and providing the option with an extra TL in the squads could provide more opportunity to get the experience, give more capacity to SLs to help their TLs learn. I usually join in at the latest time i can as to fill the missing roles if needed, and lately i've seen that SLs likely taken, but TLs are empty.

 

Either way, even if the squad structure stays the same as is, it's upon the community to cultivate an environment where people won't feel intimidated to take these roles, and in the same time everyone can find the courage to tackle the challenge. I'm sure, if anyone interested, the more experienced guys and zeuses are willing to help, just ask for it. In the times i've been around, everyone (ofc with a few exceptions) was more than happy to help or eager to learn, this is why i personally prefer to hang around in this community. Great potential, incredible amount of effort from the zeuses, staff and regulars every week.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’ll look into possibly replacing our squad structure to the American Structure, as beautifully pointed out by both Jenkins and Gambit.

 

its unlikely we will see the introduction this week, but most likely for next week. If anyone opposes this idea please do let me know below with some reasons why they may disagree with this squad structure.

 

my intentions with this mission is that I just go straight off what the community wants, and what’s in their interest, I too have been hearing that squad lead roles have been taxing and somewhat scary for newcomers. So I do think that implementing this structure might help us to ease some of the people who want to TL.

 

Thanks for the suggestions, keep them coming!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Now my next question: 

 

do we want to strictly follow the squad structure? Or do we replace roles such as the assistant automatic rifleman with more specialist roles such as a marksman and an engineer.

 

or do we create a new squad for more specialist roles?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I suggest keeping it as basic as possible.

One marksman, one autorifleman, one AT/AA, one LAT, one medic, one or maybe two grenadiers per squad. No assistant roles. Maybe split the engineer role into a repair specialist for the one squad and an explosives specialist for the other squad.

If there are too many slots and too few basic, alround roles, just put a few riflemen in. My experience over the past two weeks was that though Bravo did sometimes have a TL, the players just acted as normal riflemen, appareantly mostly due to being inexperienced (also because Bravo was too small to be split into real fireteams), so there seems to be a market for that simple role.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Keep it real simple, since we can pick up gear we can specialize a rifleman if needs be. But this specialization option implies that special abilities like repairing a vic is tied to the gear instead of the role(toolkit in inventory rather than being in an engineer slot). 

 

Everyone is a rifleman at hearth, if push comes to shove, even a pilot has to defend himself. 

 

This would greatly improve flexibility, even mid session when lets say the medic disconnects. The next riflman can be designated as squad medic and pick up the gear, no muss no fuss. 

 

As the arsenal restrictions withered away, the players doesnt seem to misbehave, that gives me hope they wont abuse even a more open and flexible system. 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

Yes i think the american squad structure might be better to make leading roles less intmidating altough this does make a problem:

The squads will be even bigger and there will be 3 leading roles to take up instead of 2 meaning that we need more players to fill up the squads and since the squads weren't filled up before we might be having more instances of having 2 incomplete squads or 1 full squad and 1 not combat effective squad.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Gambit said:

the players doesnt seem to misbehave,

 

apart from mister toast flying arround with a marksman rifle :P 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Right, how about:

 

SL

Medic

 

Team Leader

Autorifleman

Marksman

LAT/AT

 

Team Leader

Engineer

Autorifleman

Grenadier

LAT/AT

 

let me know if i'm missing any roles, and if anything should be subsituted. it's odd because it's an 11 man squad with the medic being tied with the SL, not sure if I should make the medic fall under one of the 4 man squads instead.

 

@Gambit as much as I appreicate that idea, I do want to keep the pre designated roles, as it helps to avoid confusion for newcomers especially, and it still keeps that "familiarity" from people who jump over directly from EU1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@applechaser:

2 hours ago, applechaser said:

since the squads weren't filled up before we might be having more instances of having 2 incomplete squads or 1 full squad and 1 not combat effective squad

I'll have you know that our three man Bravo squad was very much combat effective!

 

@Xwatt:

Too many autoriflemen if you ask me. I suggest:

 

SL

Medic

 

TL

Marksman

Repair Specialist or Explosives Specialist

AA/AT

 

TL

Autorifleman

Rifleman

LAT

 

Actual team composition will always be changed by the SL anyways, depending on the current situation and plan (e.g. overwatch team and assault team).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

as someone that played both systems, i find that SL being a tl works well in situations where a platoon command is present. 

 

Yes a separate TL can reduce load on a SL but as someone that played SL in the zeus ops i dont really think that load needs lightening. 

 

it also encourages the  SL to separate from the squad more, making it hard to keep squads close together and organised

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sl being separated and not hunting down rouge rifleman in his team can focus on helping a less experienced tl get the hang of teams, facilitates more communication on squad level. My idea wasnt ment to really lighten the load on sl, more towards cultivating more player interest in tl, which in turn produces more ppl to take up sl later, constant stream of mentors, self sufficient community which makes the transition from following role to leading role a bit easier. As ive mentioned i saw a lot of occasions where the tl was missing from both squads, my intention was to free up enough resources on the sl to have him help out a less experienced tl. Now, if anybody wants to try out what joys to be a tl, bit were afraid to hop in, has a fallback and can ask for more direct guidance from sl. 

 

On the subject of incomplete squads. With this, i would say you have more places to fold in combat inefective teams. Sl can take in more ppl and act as a tl as just we demonstrated in the past weeks, a tl can take 1-2 more if needed, you can basically fold in half of another squad, even more if spec roles are designated, for example autonomus sniper team or hmg team. The beauty of this structure is you can always form another fireteam, sl can handle the load and dont have to micromanage. Folding in can be done by zeus dragging in the group or reintroducing the custom groups when the community behaves nicely. 

 

More communication, more info up the chain, more informed plans, more enterainment on the stream, instead of having 10 mins of LR radio silence since every sl was in a firefight. That was my intention when i first brought this up. 

 

@Xwatt   keep the roles for clarity's sake sure, what i was talking about that the role names doesnt matter as long as i pick up a medkit and can act as a medic with all the benefits if ours disconnected even if im a rifleman by role. Just reinforcing the "can pick up anything no role restrictions" way we play with the ammobox now.

 

 

Im sure i missed some raised issues, but i tried to answer and clarify as much as i could. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Forum Statistics

    11.1k
    Total Topics
    66.4k
    Total Posts
×
×
  • Create New...