On Teamleads

[ShadowAce11]

Hey guys,

 

Throughout my ~1000 hours on Enhanced, one problem has remained consistent: There exists absolutely no desire to become a team leader. Nearly every other role, including squad lead, is more desirable than TL because of the specific outstanding perks you gain. TL has had the same abilities and responsibilities since I began playing, which, to my knowledge, are the following:

 

• Responsibility: Coordinating a team.
• Responsibility: If SL is not present, BLUFOR lead defaults to you, but cannot grab a LR radio if needed. This can include:
  • Specialty team coordination
  • Vortex coordination
  • Requiring full commanding attention while managing a full team
• Ability: Underbarrel GLs are permitted.

 

Since many people refuse to take a squad lead position, the responsibility of BLUFOR coordination falls onto the most relevant TL much more than it should; and continuing on that, the responsibility sometimes falls onto the most relevant AR since nobody wants TL either. 

 

This. Needs. To. Change. I've gotten used to the SL responsibilities being passed onto the TL after so long, but it is completely unacceptable to pass on this sort of responsibility to an AR or other role; they have their own roles to fulfill which keep them occupied.

 

My highest recommendation to solve this is to make TLs more useful. I wouldn't go as far as adding SL artillery support or something like that, but make it so that the role becomes appealing again; after a year of observing, it's very clear that grenade launchers aren't enough. (Especially since grenadiers are a thing now.)

 

I understand there's a larger underlying issue to this, and it's that people simply don't want to lead. And I get that, as I'm sure anybody else would. Leaders are definitely a minority in both this community and in real life. I'll lead if I have to, but I would much rather take a medic or engineer slot and follow, as well as knowing my role will have some applicable purpose in the field. This is not an issue that will be solved by a simple buff in the TL slot, but it might encourage those who are willing to step up more than they usually do. 

 

At this point in time I've only one idea for resolving this, and it's to change the TL role to something more specialized. What that specialization might be I'm not sure, since in a single squad we have ARs, engineers, medics, grenadiers, marksmen, LATs, riflemen, and intel ops. This is why this topic is going into this subforum - I'd love some player input on this. If we come up with a consensus, perfect. If we don't, we'll still get a good list going of TL role revisions.

 

Things I highly recommend against when it comes to suggestions:

 

• Do not make TL an ammo bearer. The AR assistant role (for the new guys around here, that role was specifically for ammo bearing) was removed previously because nobody wanted to just lug around ammo for others. This would make TL even more undesirable.
• Do not give TL abilities like those of SL, i.e. artillery support. That is part of the appeal of taking SL, and should stay there.
  • Additional comments about this in the spoiler below.
• Do not give TL a role already assigned to a specialty group, such as carrying a more powerful weapon or incredibly heavy MAT/HAT-like AT. 

 

Things I might recommend off the top of my head:

 

• Make the TL LAT-capable. Yes, we already have two LATs in each squad, but in the case of certain factions (especially the PLA), some light launchers such as the AT-4 have proven to be necessary. 
  • Rebuttal: The Rifleman LAT can just grab one from the arsenal and drop it to the TL already. Why should we whitelist the AT for the TL?
    • For the sake of simplicity. It's much better if someone can have direct access to something rather than having to ask another player for a launcher, over and over again with every map change and such.
• Give TLs optional LR radios again. This way, should there not be a squad lead, the TL can simply go into the arsenal and grab one instead of having to knick one off of Vortex or stay near a long range-equipped vehicle. 
  • Once again, this is for the sake of simplicity.

 

 

Additional comments about the second non-recommendation:

 

Spoiler

Perhaps giving TLs artillery support (I assume this would also mean giving them optional LR radios to communicate with the artillery) wouldn't be such a bad idea. But then overkill becomes a problem, because you would have 1TL and 2TL and SL (and CMD) all artillery-capable. Here's my thoughts on that, though:

 

• The ability to radio in artillery should be (if not already) dependent on long range capability. If a TL chooses not to take a LR, he won't be able to use artillery. Since ideally, only one TL should ever need a long range at one given moment, and everybody's doing the same AO, there shouldn't be any clutter on people trying to call in strikes.
  • This takes care of TLs, but what about SL?
• To SL: Completely redo the support options. Remove artillery support, add the ability to call in AI support. For example:
  • The SL can now call in a support LAV. This LAV would be spawned from a support area at the main base, with an AI crew, and it would arrive at the location ASL was at when he called it in (or ideally it would follow him throughout the AO and he could issue a "Disband support" command via ACE once it was no longer needed). 
  • The SL would still be limited in supports he could call in. It would be mainly APCs and medium vehicles; heavy things like tanks and airstrikes would be reserved for PlatCo.
    • How land vehicle support would work on Bozcaada and Malden is beyond me; perhaps just have a secret support spawn location somewhere on the main island. For the other maps, though, this might work nicely.

 

TL;DR: Read the post. 

 

An open discussion on this would be great. Whether you're an experienced player, an admin, a veteran, or just getting acquainted with Enhanced, feedback and your personal suggestions about improving this role would be incredibly helpful. 

[Ryko]

Interesting stuff here.  I'll counter that I don't think people take SL because of the "perks" of the position: if that was the case, we should make SL and TL into sniper roles, and that would solve it all, right?

 

Wait, no. It wouldn't. Because people aren't pulled towards the positions for the rewards of gear and abilities, they are often pushed towards it because no one else is doing the job.

 

I would almost go so far that if no one is leaping up to take a leadership position, it's not worth playing on AWE. It shouldn't be about one player leading because everyone else took a step back. It should be about one person deciding they want to give it a try, and everyone does their best to support and encourage that player.

 

Team Leads are already plenty useful enough: they should not be sitting back and letting the Squad Lead do everything. If the squad lead is micromanaging the squad, they are doing it wrong.  It's been a while since I've enumerated how command structure should work, so here goes:

 

Platoon Commander: Decides high-level strategy. "We have to destroy that ammo depot. We have these resources."

Squad Lead: Decides ground-level strategy. "Platoon Command has allocated us these resources. We land here and move over ground to this position. Team 1 attacks here, Team 2 supports there."

Team Lead: Decides ground-level tactics. "We land here and attack there. However there are enemy units there, so we're going to move around this other way to accomplish our objective."

 

Further, the Team Lead should be working with the Squad Lead to ensure there is a viable battle plan, and that they have the supplies necessary to accomplish that plan. It's been a disturbingly high number of times we've arrived at the objective only to find out the engineer didn't bring demo charges. That's the Team Lead's job to ensure his guys have the right amount of stuff for the job required.

 

I've often found the Team Lead position the most satisfying, because you lead by example, rather than the Squad Lead who should not be leading; if the Squad Lead is killed, all forward momentum and support gets lost.

 

As for implementing new perks for these roles, I'm not against the idea, but there are pretty important reasons that things are the way they are. Giving Long Range radios to the Team Leads might sound like a great idea, but you run the risk of clogging the radio channel with unnecessary long range chatter, and also the risk of splitting up squads more than necessary. The 1&2 teams should be working together, supporting each other: send them off to do different things, and when things go bad, they are on their own.

 

Finally, adding an AI LAV sounds like a great idea, until you have to rely on them to drive anywhere meaningful.  And then they demonstrate just how awful the AI can be.

 

All that said, if people have any ideas on how to make the role more interesting or easier to do the job their assigned, I'm all ears. But I don't think that adding new perks is going to instantly make new leaders.

 

- R

 

[Stanhope]

I personally prefer taking the SL role over the TL role, i don't really know why though.  Usually when there is no SL and more than 5 players on I'll hop in SL if nobody else is about to.  And i don't do it for the perks.  
I hate using the arty, it feels like cheating to me.  I know it's not but it still feels like it.  
Lately i've also been leaving the underbarrel at home to save on weight.  There have been more instances where i needed to get to someplace or out of some place quickly than i've had to use my GL.  So i just leave it nowadays.  
The long-range and the laser designator are the only 2 things that are different from my rifleman kit.  Sometimes i'll bring some additional smokes, but i mostly don't because of Ctab.  

 

I personally feel that giving the TLs access to more stuff won't make the role more or less attractive to me than it already is.  I'll most likely not carry any of the stuff anyways to save weight.  The only instance where i might find an AT4 interesting is if we don't have an LAT but do need some AT and i happen to be TL.  That'd be a 1 in a million occurrence though so.  

 

Like i said earlier i can't really tell you why i don't like the TL role.  So i won't be able to help you with things that'd make the role more attractive.

Just my 2 cents.

[GhostDragon]

I'm always playing teamlead and prefer it to any other role.


As someone who plays this role excessively I would like to say a few things on why I don't think some of these ideas are a good idea.

Giving teamleads a long range:

They are not a squad level leading element and as such do not need one. If asl is lost in the field then the teamlead has a 152 radio that is perfectly capable alongside messaging using ctab to get hold of vortex and or organise with the other squads on the field.

Artillery: it will give too many people access to it and it's hard enough to follow when asl calls it in (often we are not told) so adding more people to this is a bad idea.

Now as someone who likes the role I'm not sure what could be done because the role brings out leaders and appeals to those who want to be leaders.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using a phone app that is really irritating because it constantly advertises itself.

[Amentes]

I know that some players have stopped trying to TL because they felt that their team didn't allow them to lead; commonly this has been experienced by newer players.

 

TL and SL is responsibility; and we have a very large amount of players who don't want that; and some who prefer not to be around people outside their own circle.

 

I don't think there's a feature you can add that would make SL and TL more appealing. It's not about features, it's about the responsibility.

[RoyalSertr]

7 hours ago, ShadowAce11 said:

Make the TL LAT-capable. Yes, we already have two LATs in each squad, but in the case of certain factions (especially the PLA), some light launchers such as the AT-4 have proven to be necessary. 

• • Rebuttal: The Rifleman LAT can just grab one from the arsenal and drop it to the TL already. Why should we whitelist the AT for the TL?
    • For the sake of simplicity. It's much better if someone can have direct access to something rather than having to ask another player for a

Directly engaging enemy armour puts TL in higher risk, but as was stated 2xAT4 often is not enough and it will add bit some appeal to TL.

And yes, somebody can drop it for you (same as LR radio), but this is kinda going around the rules and wastes time. Whitelists are there for a reason. If you can drop AT4 for somebody, why not just drop long ranges scope etc. For me, rule coherence is important.

 

7 hours ago, ShadowAce11 said:

Give TLs optional LR radios again. This way, should there not be a squad lead, the TL can simply go into the arsenal and grab one instead of having to knick one off of Vortex or stay near a long range-equipped vehicle. 

• Once again, this is for the sake of simplicity.

Again, I agee this would make TLs tiny bit less annoying. If anything, just put in a small rule (which wont be hard to follow as most TLs are guys who've been around for a bit and have common sense).
"Both SLs and TLs have access to LR radios. Carrying LR radio is generaly allowed for SLs only. In case of empty SL role in the squad, squads leading TL (A1/B1/etc TL) can bypass this rule. Combat situations are not covered by this rule (see FAQ).

 

FAQ:
Example of LR setup:
     Full Alpha + B1 slots filled. ASL got LR, B1 TL got LR. Everyone else got SR.

 

Dropping LR radios (or anything in general) from Arsenal for anybody is not allowed.

 

Picking LR from KIA mid AO is allowed. In that case, passing on LR should follow command structuer (SLs radio -> Team 1 TL -> Team 2 TL in most cases) if situation allows it."

 

 

If you really want to have a "bait" for TL role, for me that would be access to 7.62 assault rifles where everyone else has 5.56 (obviously except AR/Marksman).

As TL you might find yourself juggling your fire team, communication with SL or possibly being SL and still being on the front lines. Doing more damage in limited time window would balance this a bit. Plus you get that unique experience at the same time.

This would probably need additional weapons added to arsenal though (SCARs *wink wink*).

But this is definitely not a deal breaker. Just small possible bonus.

 

 

But the main big thing that discourages me from taking TL (outside of not having M249 :D) are (obviously) some people.

1) My expectations as TL are, unless I specify directly (hold this position and provide cover, push to this rock whilet rest provide cover, clear the building etc.), rest of the team is to follow me/pointman (if specified then in formation, otherwise just common sense). Not fall 100m behind, push ahead by yourself or go wandering god knows where.

If I give order to push to one specific builiding and half the team does it, but 2 guys run elsewhere and get separated, why should I even care about them. If I specify the plan and nobody gives comments beforehand, you follow direct orders even if it is risky (and as TL I will do my best to get the objective done without any casuality).

Obviously if situation really needs it, you sometimes just have to take the closest cover or push/flank around. But then at least call it out so I am aware of it.

Heck, from time to time, I call over radio for somebody to fall back in formation and get no answer (voice nor action). And if I have to babysit somebody and call him over again and again because he doesnt stick with the rest for unknown reason, I really cannot be bothered.

 

2) Fun over tactics. Dont get me wrong, I understand Arma is just a game and we have different expectations what we need to have fun. But EU3/EUE is server based on at least basic teamwork with command structure. That means sometimes you are given orders that wont be fun. And you are expected to follow them (e.g. clearing number of empty building). As TL I do the same (boring) stuff as rest of the team, its not like I steal the fun for myself. If you get direct order you follow it. Maybe with cheeky comment or suggestion (I b*tch a lot) but as you show your "wits", you still follow the orders. If you have issue or find the AO boring, tell me after we are done. If you tell me mid AO, I will probably ignore and forget it as at the time I am occupied with other stuff. Then, I can relay to SL that the team didnt enjoy the AO and ask if we can be the forward team for the next one so we get to shoot more.

Example: We occupied a large building. A1 is engaging enemies to the North. As A2 TL I will order my guys to take SE, S and SW side of the building as we lack info about enemy troops. It might be questionable for some, but I wont put another 5 people at the same side of building with nobody to cover our sides and flank. And as TL I will be there with you.

This issue is not that uncommon. Once there are shots fired, a lot of people ignore their sector and just go for the kill. We all are probably guilty of this sometimes (I sure am) but if TL calls you out on it, you get a grasp of yourself and return to your sector, trusting your buddies to have your back while you cover their.

 

 

Yes, it turned into a bit of rant, sorry for that. I felt I needed to explain myself. I find TLs job hard as is (my english is not fully fluent so I slutter, have to think about best way to do the job, communicate with the team and shoot at the same time etc.) but I will try to do my best. But as Ryko said:

6 hours ago, Ryko said:

I would almost go so far that if no one is leaping up to take a leadership position, it's not worth playing on AWE. It shouldn't be about one player leading because everyone else took a step back. It should be about one person deciding they want to give it a try, and everyone does their best to support and encourage that player.

If you dont help me and even go as far as make my job harder, I really cannot be bothered and will either reslot or disconnect.

[ShadowAce11]

Okay. Okay. I think some points were missed here.

11 hours ago, Ryko said:

Finally, adding an AI LAV sounds like a great idea, until you have to rely on them to drive anywhere meaningful.  And then they demonstrate just how awful the AI can be.

Yep, and that would be the main problem: the AI's pathfinding capabilities. However, in my experience as Zeus so far, a basic move order works perfectly fine. If the AI gets stuck on a wall, yes, they'll dismount then, but that's usually a rarity. Just to ensure the AI gets to their destination, I might recommend them spawning in as careless and upon reaching their marker, shifting into aware or combat mode.

 

@Stanhope, you're an exception to this chat, because you're one of the few who willingly takes the leader roles. What I'm bringing this up for is more for those who don't mind leading, but just need that little extra bit of incentive to be persuaded to take the slot. (btw thanks for leading <3)

 

6 hours ago, GhostDragon said:

They are not a squad level leading element and as such do not need one. If asl is lost in the field then the teamlead has a 152 radio that is perfectly capable alongside messaging using ctab to get hold of vortex and or organise with the other squads on the field.

I mentioned that these LR radios would be optional. They don't need to take them, and I don't expect a lot of people to do so since they are a lot of unnecessary weight. Communicating with Vortex via the 152 is fine, but still very limited in range. If you have to send Vortex back to base for reinserts, there's a good to fair chance you won't be able to contact him until he gets back to you; on maps like Lythium and Bozcaada, that's a long outage time. On cTab, I side with @Amentes on his previous comments about the use of cTab in general; it bypasses a lot of things that could improve gameplay and the challenge that the server tries to present (apologies if this wasn't Amentes that brought this up). That's just a debate about preferences at that point, and I doubt we'll get anywhere with that.

 

Half of the appeal of taking a long range as TL is for the support options I brought up. One might not be necessary for communicating with Vortex, but it is for calling in support. If you get a TL who wants that option, they can take it. If you get a TL who doesn't, they don't have to take it. It's all about being optional. 

 

6 hours ago, GhostDragon said:

Artillery: it will give too many people access to it and it's hard enough to follow when asl calls it in (often we are not told) so adding more people to this is a bad idea.

For the first part, I think the spoiler with additional comments deals with this problem pretty well. For the second part, good critique. The importance of communication while using support will be absolutely crucial; perhaps bring the Shelldrake communication from the command channel to the side channel so everybody can see what's going on as a quickfix while something more stable is being worked out? <-- I also understand that might lead to breakdown in side channel silence, so maybe not the best idea, but it's what I've got off the top of my head right now.

 

5 hours ago, RoyalSertr said:

Picking LR from KIA mid AO is allowed.

There are times where SL is separated from the rest of the team and they cannot reach his body to get the LR. I'm trying to just account for that fact, not for the times you can do such a thing.

[Ryko]

Just because it's optional, doesn't mean people will realize that. It's been my experience that players will exploit any game option available, which has led to restrictions being placed on things for the sake of the overall game experience.

 

I applaud the idea of communication, but that doesn't mean it happens in practice.  That said, I'm amenable to the idea of making LR radios available for TL's in the arsenal.

[SiegeSix]

If I may get my opinion here.

 

Don't give TL's LRs. 

TL's are fine as they are. The only problem here is players are self aware. 

But thinking everything through, the TL really do not need anything in changing.

Just the players in the team. They decide to obey the order giving and refuse to ask TL if they can setup a little further away, they just go.

 

The TL's are doing what they are supposed to do. The players in the team should just be listening more to him.

 

Last factor:

Remember, it is not what role does what, but who is playing the role that does something.

[Stanhope]

I personally don't see an issue if things were to turn into chaos just because the SL goes down and the TL doesn't have a LR.  If said TL can't keep the squad together just because he doesn't have a LR it deserves to go to chaos (in my opinion).  

The reasons (i can come up with) for having a LR: Talking to vortex/FSG/platco/..., asking for orders and requesting immediate support.

First 2 can be done via Ctab without any issues, they aren't urgent.  The third one can't be done over ctab because of the time element.  However unless you happen to need immediate support from a jet there is a good chance you can reach them by setting your additional to 30.  

 

16 minutes ago, ShadowAce11 said:

Yep, and that would be the main problem: the AI's pathfinding capabilities. However, in my experience as Zeus so far, a basic move order works perfectly fine. If the AI gets stuck on a wall, yes, they'll dismount then, but that's usually a rarity. Just to ensure the AI gets to their destination, I might recommend them spawning in as careless and upon reaching their marker, shifting into aware or combat mode.

The problem is that AI auto shifts into combat.  Sometimes when they hear the first shot, sometimes only after killing the first guy in the squad.  One can disable the auto-switching of combat states but that also means they just won't switch unless the script tells it to, not when they get shot at, not when they get killed.

 

17 minutes ago, ShadowAce11 said:

@Stanhope, you're an exception to this chat, because you're one of the few who willingly takes the leader roles. What I'm bringing this up for is more for those who don't mind leading, but just need that little extra bit of incentive to be persuaded to take the slot. (btw thanks for leading <3)

Define willingly, we get out of base within half an hour if i take SL, we don't if i don't and nobody else does.  So i just take it.  I'd rather be a marksman/AR/medic/...  But i also like to see something else than base.

 

19 minutes ago, ShadowAce11 said:

I mentioned that these LR radios would be optional.

Good luck explaining that to people   + what ryko said.

 

20 minutes ago, ShadowAce11 said:

The importance of communication while using support will be absolutely crucial; perhaps bring the Shelldrake communication from the command channel to the side channel so everybody can see what's going on as a quickfix while something more stable is being worked out?

It's the responsibility of the person calling it in to report it in my opinion.  If he doesn't and because of this lack of communication someone dies i'd personally even call it teamkilling.

If you can't handle calling out over the radio: "Arty strike at pos X in Y amount of time, keep your heads down", can you be trusted with 155mm HE shells?

 

 

My suggestions on making the role of TL less of a drag, make the following things crystal clear to people.

-If the TL says jump you jump, you don't ask why. 

-If he says go to A, don't go to B or C or D or anywhere else, go to freaking A.  Yes there might not be any cover there, yes you might get shot at along the way.  But your TL said so, so there must be a good reason.  If you want to know that reason, ask when things have settled down.  Right now, just do it.  If afterwards the reason turned out to be crappy talk about it with him.  If this happens too often and talking about doesn't work then it's time to talk to a modded mod.

-If he tells you to take a helmet you don't ask 10 times if he's sure, you don't try to convince him that you get shot in the head when wearing a helmet and not when you're wearing a cap.  You don't come back with a hardhat nor with the climbing helmets without armor level.  The beany with armor also doesn't count.  Just put a helmet on your head.  If you don't like the way it looks on your head, go into first person; problem solved. 

-If your TL tells you to get in a column formation don't get into a line, nor into a staggered column.  If you don't know how a column, staggered column, line, wedge, echelon (L/R), ...  formation looks talk to someone of the training team.  I'm convinced they'll happily help you.

-If your TL tells you to hold fire, don't shoot.  It's not hard, just don't press that left mouse button.

-Don't give him any attitude.  You may not like his orders, you could have taken the slot yourself.  You didn't so deal with it.  

 

These are my most common annoyances as a TL(/SL).  I'll often encounter that someone in the ASL team isn't wearing a helmet, politely tell him to make sure he has a helmet.  Said person then proceeds to ask if i'm sure, and if this is good, or maybe that, ...  And before you know it you delayed the entire server because you didn't just put a helmet on your head.  

 

Another thing that tends to annoy me (as an ASL) is the fact that most FSGs will just start taking the weapon system they prefer.  That's not how it works.  The weapon system should be determined after a dialog between ASL and FSG SL (and sometimes the specialist to see if he's comfortable using said weapon system).  

Simply taking the weapon system you want will put the SL in a somewhat difficult position.  Does he want to tell FSG to change and be seen as a buzzkill and slow the server down?  Or will he just deal with it and next time not take SL because people just do whatever the heck they please.

 

Enough talking now, that's my 2 cents as a player of AWE.

 

 

 

[Ryko]

@Stanhope

all of which can be summarized by rule 3:

 

Listen to the Chain Of Command.

• Listen to the orders from your superior, and implement them to the best of your ability.

[Noah_Hero]

1 minute ago, Ryko said:

@Stanhope

all of which can be summarized by rule 3:

 

Listen to the Chain Of Command.

• Listen to the orders from your superior, and implement them to the best of your ability.

It still happens more than often. Because apparently people don´t seem to care too much about some rules...but 3 and 10 (Radios should be used for important conversation.) are definitly the rules to get ignored the most.

[Ryko]

I venture that people's willingness to follow your orders is proportional to how much they trust you as a leader.  If you give orders that make sense and give the players some level of flexibility to do their job, I find they tow the line.

[Vlk]

Maybe im playing at the right times, its been a long team since i experienced the issue of not having team and squad leaders, but pherhaps it happends more than iam aware of. Anyway, i notice that new ppl (0-6 months) are playing as teamleaders and the oldschoolers not so much. I think we are on the right path.

 

v

[Eagle-Eye]

I don't come on AWE anymore, as I don't like the half-half environment it aims for (which IMO creates more issues than it solves), so I don't know its current status, but I'd like to chip in my two cents, if you'll have them. If not, continue to next reply.

 

 

I'm wondering: wouldn't this be a lot easier if you just enforce that a squad's first slot to be filled is that of SL? After that, everyone's free to chose whatever he wants or the mission requires, but if nobody picks the TL-slot, it's SL's job to assign one per team. Preferably, that someone is just a regular rifleman, since he doesn't have a specific task/role to fulfil, but in the end, someone has to do it, even if it's the AT or AR... Once someone does slot in as TL, he takes over team command of that team. (if need be, give him some time to settle in and get his situational awareness up)

 

 

I'm also reading a lot about communication issues, which IMO is the base principle of any coherent operation. Skimp on that, and you're just creating noise and headaches.

Basically, it doesn't matter who's running around with what radio, as long as your radio discipline is on point. If a grunt wants to run around with SR and LR radios, for better situational awareness or to learn the ropes of commanding, let him, but make it clear that he doesn't transmit. EVER!!

 

It's a trickle-down system, so the higher up you go, the more you have to say.

- On LR, you should only hear PlatCo, SLs and assets. If TL has access to a LR, he may use it, but only to report his SL is down and whether or not his squad needs assistance from another squad or asset. Once SL is back up, TL gets off the LR wave immediately.

Calling in support assets (Vortex, artillery, CAS, ...) should ONLY be done, or at the very least approved, by the acting commander, in my opinion. He's the only one with a complete overview, and he should know and dictate what is needed where first. That's how you keep things simple, clear, concise...

- On SR, most talking is done by SL and TL, with the occasional sighting/contact calls or suggestions (!!) from team members.

 

6 hours ago, Amentes said:

I know that some players have stopped trying to TL because they felt that their team didn't allow them to lead; commonly this has been experienced by newer players.

I've seen it happen in other places as well that Sgt_NewGuy goes for the TL slot, while Mjr_LongTimer takes the AT slot. Even if TL is doing a fine job, at some point during the mission, AT will yell "Red, set up on that wall" and TL will be like "Ehr... I'm TL, why are you giving commands?"

AT: "Oh, right. Sorry. You have the lead."

*10 seconds later*

AT: "Red, 1 o'clock, white building, move out"

=> TL gives up, and lets AT assume control. No corrective action from SL in any way...

 

 

 

Finally, to answer the question on how to make TL more appealing. I think this quote sums up what I think about it.

7 hours ago, RoyalSertr said:

But the main big thing that discourages me from taking TL [...] are (obviously) some people.

 

[...]

 

2) Fun over tactics.

 

If the people you're supposed to be controlling want fun over tactics, and that leads to them not following your orders, you're useless as a leader (goes for both TL and SL). You don't need that fancy LR radio, AT or 7.62 capability etc., as much as you need a change in community mentality.

[BenjaminHL]

To me it is super funny how many times we have talked about this and how little has changed despite changes to the role. People continue to think it is something that is wrong with the role or that it isn't fun to play, this is all wrong. It isn't that the role or the equipment or the perceived lack of fun, it is the people. People just simply don't want to play the role. I am not one to say why this community has a strong dislike for leadership roles in game, but it does. So instead of suggesting arbitrary things to attract people to the role maybe the community should take a look at itself and see what is wrong and how it can improve itself on a personal and group basis. 

 

-Ben

[Noah_Hero]

17 minutes ago, Eagle-Eye said:

as long as your radio discipline is on point.

that´s the one of the current major problems in my opinion. There is nearly no radio discipline at all. Nearly everyone is talking trash at all times instead of staying quiet to keep the net for SL and TL only (what shouldn´t be a problem since fireteam members should at all times be within shouting distance to TL => there should be no need for them to use the radio). But it seems that a lot of people don´t care about rule 10...

[Colsta]

1 hour ago, Noah_Hero said:

There is nearly no radio discipline at all.

I don't know about you, but lately I haven't noticed anything that backs this comment.

[Noah_Hero]

10 minutes ago, Colsta said:

I don't know about you, but lately I haven't noticed anything that backs this comment.

Well I obviously have...otherwise I wouldn´t have posted this Maybe my standpoint is just too extreme when it comes to radio-discipline but it happens often enough that not only SL and TL are speaking on SW. And I wouldn´t have a problem with that if the other fireteam members speaking there would be just calling out contacts, etc but quite often they are rather having a nice chat. And I know that this isn´t milsim but having a laugh via radio seems to be pretty inappropriate even for AWE.

 

*Edit*: And sorry for getting this off-topic

[Stanhope]

5 hours ago, Ryko said:

I venture that people's willingness to follow your orders is proportional to how much they trust you as a leader.  If you give orders that make sense and give the players some level of flexibility to do their job, I find they tow the line.

Well if people don't trust you enough to be willing to put on a helmet instead of a cap without asking 5 times and coming back with a hardhat and the beany with supposed armor value and the helmets without armor value before actually putting on a helmet.  In this case it might be better to simply not leave base and talk about some things.

 

It's not the real important things that make that i don't take TL and don't find SL particularly enjoyable.  It's those little things like not willing to put a helmet on.  I completely get that if you're getting shot at things don't go 100% as planned.  And i don't really care then whether or not you kill the enemy from hill X or hill Y, as long as you kill them.  

However over the past week i've taken SL a couple of times.  Every time i've politely requested everyone to wear a helmet.  Not over the radio, not as a plain old order, not along the lines of 'you will put a helmet on'.  Just a friendly 'don't forget to bring your helmet' or 'make sure to have your helmet'.  There has not been a single night when i was ASL in these past few weeks where everyone was wearing a helmet out in the field.  

And as mentioned before, it's not the new guys that don't bring their helmet.  I'd actually get it from them and try to explain to them why i asked that.  But no it's the guys who know all too well what is expected from them when they are asked to bring a helmet.  And they knowingly and willingly ignored that request/order.

 

2 hours ago, Colsta said:

4 hours ago, Noah_Hero said:

There is nearly no radio discipline at all.

I don't know about you, but lately I haven't noticed anything that backs this comment.

Late last week or early this week can't remember: 2 people in the driver seats of vehicles on a T-junction both saying "after you", "no after you", "no i insist you go first" for 2 minutes.  One of them a veteran the other has been around just as long.

 

That's the most notable example i can come up with from the top of my head.  And i don't even really care that someone says 'repeat' over long range while having a CAS bird in the air that just did a CAS mission (happend today).  I know that he just wants the person who just said something to say it again.  

It's again the other things from the regulars who know better that annoy me.

I've said it before and i'll say it again: i'm not perfect, not even on the same planet as perfect.  I also don't expect anyone to be perfect.  But if you know better, do better.
Again just my 2 cents as a player.

[BorderLive]

Personally,

 

I prefer to take a teamlead role when there is an active SL, This makes it easier for me to focus on what I have to do as a teamlead. However, I feel as if most people do not want to step into the SL/TL role when one is not active as they do not want the responsibility to fall onto their shoulders.

[Vlk]

Do I like to lead others or being lead? -> asl/tl / other slot. Do I step out of the comfort zone and choose a leader slot, but meet disrespectful players which there are plenty of examples of in this thread, contact moderator and warning/kick/ban.


Sent from my iPhone using a phone app that is really irritating because it constantly advertises itself.