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zissou

EU1 & EU2 NOTICE TO PILOTS RULES ARE CHANGING

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Or create a new Pilot Slot only to repair und refeul heli and armor for example a Taru..

Could be a new interesting role

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Why not we give this new ruling a trial period? Say two weeks? If operations are normal, then make it permanent. During this period, we take feedbacks via the forum

I agree, feedback so far has been 95% negative or constructive criticism, while I understand and agree that piloting is not ok in its current state, there are better ways to fix it than adding more rules that are largely unwelcomed. Give it a while and then open up another thread or something to get feedback once more then act on that.

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It feel as if you're sending out double messages.

I do agree, pilots are one of, if not the most important role on an I&A server and many pilots do not fly the helicopters the way they are intended to be flown. You often die when you get into a helicopter with a random, unknown pilot, and it shouldn't be like that. It's usually a combination of lack of skill, and cooperation which causes this, as people on the ground generally think the pilots are the only ones responsible for keeping the air clean of jets and making sure that the troops gets from point A to point B safe and secure. We say that we want more skilled and experienced pilots, but at the same time we want to be an open and easily accessible community.

There was a suggestion in a thread earlier where Extra suggested that we could give known and experienced pilots a mark/badge or whatever to show that they are competent pilots. The purpose was to make it easier for people to pick a more reliable pilot to fly with, to lessen the frustration and respawnrates of the troops. The idea swiftly got shot down with the motivation that we're not a milsim. These servers are supposed to be accessible and we neither want people to feel excluded nor scare them away from trying new roles. Almost everyone was unanimous, this wasn't the way people wanted the server to go.

Mere 4 days later, this post, with its new set of rules is posted.

You're saying that people are misusing aircrafts, landing too close, abandoning vehicles, that they should not fly unless they know how to auto rotate and/or land a helicopter in a narrow space without an antitorque etc.

You're saying that the pilots do not value their helicopters, that they put them at risk and when it downs and then rather blow it up than actually repair it. I do agree with this to some extent. It is a shame that you as of today need to satchel a helicopter once you're downed. There are a few problems with makes this nessesary. The first problem is fuel, a problem which you say you will adress. It isn't often that you actually do carry a repair guy once you do go down, but the times you do the helicopter most likely won't have any fuel left by the time he's done repairing it. Sure, you may solve this, I've seen it done on other servers before in such a way that helicopters gain a few percent fuel once repaired, so I don't why why we can't have that here, but that is not the only issue.

You rarely have repair guys in you helicopter, and usually those slots are left empty. If you down your helicopter, you may be far from an AO (often you are), and taking a repair vehicle there would often take a tremendous amount of time, even with something you can airlift in with another helicopter. If you down too close to the AO you either need to drive there, or make sure that you have a competent repair guy, willing to help. If you try and fly there with a repair vehicle, you will most likely lose another helicopter, leaving you with even less helicopters for transportation.

The helicopters would have a lot of downtime, and people already complain if there isn't a helicopter on the helipad the second they respawn. The average random player has the patience and attention span of a five-year-old and you often see they beginning to mess around once they get tiered of waiting.

Some of these rules could be, but not on a server like this. The rules you're suggesting require way more disciplin, cooperation and communication than I've ever seen on EU 1 and 2. In the same way a writer has to adapt his style of writing to his readers, the server rules must be adapted to the player base. You can go ahead, you can give these rules a try, but I won't be flying with them.

All i see in these rules are a recipe for disaster. All I see is a server where piloting becomes more dull and boring, a server where people will have to walk for several kilometers because pilots are too tiered to wait for their repairs, or too tiered to actually return to and repair their downed helicopters. I imagine a scenario where helicopters will be left behind a scenario where people will take new helicopters rather than repairing the ones they use right now. People already do it. There are broken helicopters left at helipads or at old AOs almost all the time. The admins simply cannot keep track of it and the players don't even know where these helicopters are located. What's suggested would require even more babysitting by admins, and even with an admin constantly watching, I cannot even Imagine a scenario where this will work as intended, not with the current player base.

No, I do not like this idea the slightest. I think we're approaching this from a completely wrong angle. The problem isn't with the rules, the problem is the pilots. We do have a large amount of more than capable pilots, but they're often not the ones actually flying the helicopters. The pilot slots are very popular, they're often taken. People want to fly, they want to practice. Most of these pilots aren't the ones flying the way you seem to want them to fly, most of them are rookies trying their wings.

A suggestion to make sure that you have at least a few decent pilots on the server would be to take another look at Extras suggestion. I'd rather suggest that you white list 3 of the 5 pilot slots. Have 2 of the slots open for new players, to let them try their wings, but lock 3 of them. Have the top 3 slots only allowing more experienced pilots into them, pilots which you know are capable, pilots which have proven them self through tryouts and/or recommendations. Having one or two bad pilots isn't really a problem, as long as the other 3 are capable enough things will flow smoothly.

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I actualy like these changes, might even be worth trying to get the pilot slot sometime on a I&A (eu1/2) server for a change if i dont feel like doing the eu3 type of planning and stuff, a little more loose but not without some solid rules. As for the bringing eu3 squad structure to eu1/2; i agree with zissou here, no need to do so, beside we have eu3 for exactly that reason, more orginized and rule enforced gameplay, no need to change eu1/2 into a eu3 clone.

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I'm a fairly new player on this server, but I like to think I'm a somewhat capable pilot.  Sadly capable pilots seem to be the exception on these servers unless zeus is going on and an admin is actively kicking bad pilots.  I think if there is someone to enforce these rules, the changes would be great.  

The only problems I see are:

 

1: Teamkillers:  I was piloting for a zeus mission by John the other day and was evacing hostages in a huron in a base on top of a hill.  The hostages were loaded and i was waiting for one other player to board the almost completely filled huron.  Out of nowhere a uav flew in and annahilated my heli, which means under these rules I would have to wait quite a while for another huron to spawn.  Also, the other day there were people shooting helis taking off with slammers over and over, and it took 10-15 minutes to find an admin to kick.

 

2: Repairing:  I've rarely been able to find repair specialists who actually do their job, and usually by the time they do get to my downed chopper, all the fuel is leaked out and the other vortex pilots arent on TS or responding in chat to lift a fuel truck or fuel bladder.  Repairing isnt as big of a problem as fuel, but I like the idea of pilots having a 1 shot toolkit to at least fix the heli enough to make it to base, and the idea to get rid of fuel leak/have jerry cans.  I don't mind the downtime of waiting for repair if there are other competent pilots and repair specialists to help me out, but people rarely take repair spec and if they do its because its the last spot left and dont do their role.

 

3.  Enemy AA jets/kajmans are rarely downed in a timely manner due to having no AA pilot, the long respawn time on the friendly AA jet, or there just being too many of them around.  This could possibly be solved by making one of the vortex pilots only able to fly the AA jet, ensuring someone who is competent in it would be able to fly it.

 

I think that one rule that should be flexible is the blowing of choppers.  If for some reason you are downed at an LZ that is too hot for repairs or enemys are advancing on it like the zeus mission from last night, it should be acceptable to blow the chopper.  Maybe require permission from zeus/admins online beforehand though.

I also really like Harold's idea of a distinguished pilot badge, and possibly 1-2 reserved vortex spots for those pilots just to be sure there are some competent pilots online.  

Overall, these look like great rules if they are enforced and a few slight changes are made.

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> That is true and a scenario that will have to be taken into account perhaps a reduction in the number of enemy jets?

 

I'd rather have *more* enemy air, perhaps that would give enough reason for some AT guys to carry AA launchers. Almost nobody uses them now. Maybe less jets and more helos though? Or maybe there could be a separate AA squad section?

I do not like idea of AA-laucher only slot. AA lauchers are very niche use, unless Zeus creates specific scenario for it.

 

I would much rather see "Titan Launcher" and "Titan Launcher(compact)" merged into 1 weapon, so that the missile specialist can carry both AT and AA misiles.

At the moment I'm taking 4 AT, but if allowed I would go with 3/1 or even 2/2 loadout to be able to help against enemy AirForce when AO is new and Radiotower still stands.

 

3.  Enemy AA jets/kajmans are rarely downed in a timely manner due to having no AA pilot, the long respawn time on the friendly AA jet, or there just being too many of them around.  This could possibly be solved by making one of the vortex pilots only able to fly the AA jet, ensuring someone who is competent in it would be able to fly it.

Same problem. If AA pilot is good and kill enemy AA/CAS fast, once RT is down they just fly around having nothing to do.

It's good that they can land and take over chopper. If you lock them only into Buzzard, many won't be willing to take that spot.

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> I do not like idea of AA-laucher only slot. AA lauchers are very niche use, unless Zeus creates specific scenario for it.

 

It's no more niche than the AT slot is, there's just more targets for the AT. After your missiles are gone you revert to a regular rifleman. AA requires more skill/luck though, as the tanks don't have flares. I usually play AT, and i'd gladly take an AA launcher if there was more use for it. Mostly it's not needed, and you arrive to the AO with all of the enemy air already gone. It's only when going in among the first troops when AA would be useful.

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i was playing with some friends from potatosquad the other day on eu2 and the server was fairly empty (20 ish players) and i started of flying beacuse there was no pilot on and i know people trust my flying skills. so i flew for like an hour before getting bored and wanted to join my friends on the ground, all the pilot slots were full by the time so i thought that i am not forced to be a pilot anymore. but what i didn't know was that none of the other pilots could fly at all. they crashed basically all the helis so we tried taking ground vehicles but got shot out by the nephron so we couldn't get to the AO. so i was forced to go back piloting but now all the slots were full and it took another halv hour to get a slot.

 

the only time i dont feel like i am forced to be a pilot is when there is a zues mission on because they attract the more skilled players

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Okay the community has spoken the intention is good but the implementation isn't going over well?

So firstly anything we implement can be unimplemented so don't worry on that front.

Fuel issue will be sorted.

Respawn time on choppers will be increased to encourage better flying.

Wasting helis will be discouraged.

Whitelisting slots will never happen not on the public servers it's simply not what aw is about.

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as far as respawn times for the Helos go...
I feel the Hummingbird should have the shortest respawn, seeing as it has NO COUNTERMEASURES an can be taken down so quickly.

Also, i'd like to suggest that it is used mainly to ferry Medics/Repiar specs to other areas as needed, before being used to take Ground Units into AO's.

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As a community in the forums, we should politely ask repair specialist to play their roles. I understand repair specialists have a bad reputation for not even heeding the calls for service.

 

If my time as repair spec is needed away from AO more, I will gladly assist.

 

Maybe we can:

  • retain Hummingbird's respawn time
  • increase transport choppers' respawn time

Thanks for listening to the feedbacks, zissou.

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"The respawn time on Aircraft will be increased to encourage better flying." We sooo need this on EU#3

 

I'll need to think about addressing something similar for EU#3 pilots.

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Well first off, although I may be late to the fray, I still want to share my two cents. Beware though, this will be an essay, so read at your own behalf :P

 

Regarding the intent to make pilots more skilled overall: that is very much appreciated! I cannot tell you how many times in the past weeks, me and may squad have been longing for the Hummingbird to fly ourselves (in the Co-pilot slot as normal infantry) because NONE of the pilots could fly at all. I was even doing transports for a good while in that without actually being a pilot to bring some people to the AO.

 

Regarding the rules themselves: I like the hightening of respawn times, but how much is it? I am playing a variety of roles, and one example that you can look at here is the UAV OP: I mostly try to stay away from the Jets, but the reality is, if there are no helis around that act as shooting practise for them, it is 10-minute-respawn time for my UAV. That is totally fine though: It makes me want to save every single one of the UAVs, flying as safe as possible even if it takes longer. But the difference here is: You stil have another one, and if even that is down, you still have the stomper. You do not have real downtime like you would have with the Pilot slots. Also: the UAV OP isn't the most viable piece of infrastructure in the server, so downtime does not really matter there.

 

I guess what will make and break that rule are the respawn times themselves. How high are they? Are they uniform for every Helo? Because what I would be suggesting is varying them on base of their capacity. That means, that the Hummingbird would stay or get only a slight increase. That way we would have a heli for less experienced people to mess around with, and the infrastucture would never completely halt at any given point in time. Maybe even add another Hummingbird for those reasons: To have an option always readily available. (Keep in mind, that that just sprung into my mind while writing this, it may very well be the worst idea ever, to be completely honest.)

 

Additionally, especially at the start of a new AO, getting shot down is a danger that is all too real. I like to think of myself as at least a half-decent pilot, so what I do when a new AO starts is to map LZs. I open the map, put it in no-textures mode and look for hills to give me cover as close to the AO as possible. Because if you are no Huron that can lift a hunter for at least a fraction of your passengers to take, landing even half a kilometer out will piss off a lot of people. So I backcheck with my passengers to take the risk and go in low & fast, to utilize the cover. Most of the times it goes well, but somethimes there is a tigris that strayed a bit far from the AO or some other factor that you could not take into accout, as you were the first wave, and the pilots before you did not communicate at all. Most helis are perfectly recoverable with a shot-out tail rotor, but especially in the ghosthawk, that does not want to go up at all, flying fast below 15m is basically a death sentence, that becomes necessary to survive most of the times as "batch 1". I admit, this is a very niche case, that almost never happens, but it is only one of them.

 

What I want to get at here, is that experienced Pilots can go down just as fast as unecperienced ones. And the perception of a good pilot by the playing community is not one that lands 100% of the time 2 km out, but rather one that takes em right into the fray and does not die most of the time, and I must admit I need to agree there. I am perfectly willing to respawn once in a while but be on the action rigth away all the other times.

 

But here is where we loop back to the initial problem: Most pilots that come into ahoyworld DO die most of the time and do not know how to evade missiles, go low and fast, and how to put down a damaged heli. And adding to the respawn times is a really good way to makes this happen less, as long as it does not start hindering the infrastructure (and thus the gameplay of basically everyone) and the genuinely good pilots that just want the good for their passengers. I do also agree with the repair of crash-landed helis being necessary, and adressing the fuel leakage is the first rigth step in that direction, I think that there are a few more to take in that regard. because if you crash-land the Mohawk and get the Huron destroyed, the liftable repair vehicle would need to a quad bike to be even worth a dime in that situation.

 

What would resolve at the very least some of the problem without needing to have all these changes would be one simple thing: make TS mandatory for pilots. Whenever I was in TS with pilots, they were the ones communicating (of course there are also a few bad apples that don't) and who genuinly try to fly the best way possible. Those are the ones calling safe and unsafe LZs and that help the crew of a downed heli stuck in nirvana. Make TS mandatory, and you force pilots to engage with the server and you force them to know what is going on around them, and as such you will weed out the ones that do not want to engage with all that and who are just flying on their own, or at least get more of the good pilots without giving trolls the ultimate weapon of exorbitant respawn times.

 

TL;DR: It is awesome that this issue is getting adressed and everyone's got valid points. But maybe there are different ways to handle that problem.

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I haven't played EU#1 for a long time, and one of the reasons is actually this very problem: I'd like to fly but normally 3 out of 5 pilots weren't on TS and 4 out of 5 couldn't actually fly a helicopter.

 

So, yes, adjusting the poor situation is a great goal. But IMHO, this will not actually be enforced, unless situation changed, there were never any admins on EU #1 when I played, so everyone will just suffer from low helicopter respawn rate. The primary reason for helicopters being shot down is not landing too close to the AO, it is the AA buzzard that has unlimited rockets.

 

IMHO, the best rule would be to just auto-kick anyone that is in a pilot slot and not on TS or ignores TS for a long time, or is simply being an idiot and harming the gameplay.

 

Edit: Sorry if this has actually been replied to, I did not notice I'm so late to the discussion.

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I haven't played EU#1 for a long time, and one of the reasons is actually this very problem: I'd like to fly but normally 3 out of 5 pilots weren't on TS and 4 out of 5 couldn't actually fly a helicopter.

 

So, yes, adjusting the poor situation is a great goal. But IMHO, this will not actually be enforced, unless situation changed, there were never any admins on EU #1 when I played, so everyone will just suffer from low helicopter respawn rate. The primary reason for helicopters being shot down is not landing too close to the AO, it is the AA buzzard that has unlimited rockets.

 

IMHO, the best rule would be to just auto-kick anyone that is in a pilot slot and not on TS or ignores TS for a long time, or is simply being an idiot and harming the gameplay.

 

Edit: Sorry if this has actually been replied to, I did not notice I'm so late to the discussion.

 

Something that was mentioned last night over TS when we were having a couple of issues on EU#2, is that some of the Admins normally are watching sidechat on the server, so if there is something like that going off, then mention it in the Side, and talk to the Admin when they appear. Even if they're not on the server, they can still act.

If thats not answered, then we can always try raising the admin on TS.

 

I think in the long run, it'll work out fine, the pilots that do come on TS are good, and there are some who are very good who don't come on TS. Its all about making sure that a procedure is adhered to, and hopefully, any problems will sort out.

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Ahoy
I would like to reopen this discussion. Following will be based on my limited obsarvations during my game time.

 

What i expected:

- Pilots still suck.

- New rules are followed by experienced pilots (sometimes*) as nobody else even bothered reading them.

Not expected:

- Subjective lack of promised active enforcement of the new rules.

- Benevolence of some Zeus players (will not name) which repair and refuel helicopters on demand.

 

So what do you guys think. Did new rules bring any improvement? Do you feel that they are enforced enough?

 

*Often pilot will respawn after all others will be >500m away and heli will respawn in base with them technically circumventing new rule.

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27 minutes ago, Cebi said:

What i expected:

- Pilots still suck.

- New rules are followed by experienced pilots (sometimes*) as nobody else even bothered reading them.

Yes, i do think as a whole the new rule hasn't changed much behavior wise. However we've all seen a huge increase in crappy pilots over this weekend because of Arma 3 being on sale. And ll expect to have more crap pilots over this week.

30 minutes ago, Cebi said:

- Subjective lack of promised active enforcement of the new rules.

- Benevolence of some Zeus players (will not name) which repair and refuel helicopters on demand.

This is a challenging rule to enforce as admin would need to be in-game for the perpetrators to be caught. We can do limited things when not in-game, we do mainly rely on the report function, but this requires players to help us out. Which is still at www.ahoyworld.net/pr. And yes to remind all Spartans DONT give people pink Kuma's even if they insist, it ruins the whole mission.

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in summary all problems can be fixed if you simply don't crash to begin with. Although not everyone is good at flying.

 

one suggestion tho. How about having a board/wall/painting in spawn with a list of good pilots. I have my own private list of people who I believe are worthy. The list atm contains 8 names including me.

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1 hour ago, TonyPestroni said:

one suggestion tho. How about having a board/wall/painting in spawn with a list of good pilots. I have my own private list of people who I believe are worthy. The list atm contains 8 names including me.

 

What exactly would that help though? 

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@Jason.:People will try to become acomplished pilots just to get on board of fame by actualy training in editor? Example will be set in imaginery digital stone? But when few people are bothered to read rules even less will be bothered to read some monument for decent pilots. Dont know how effective this would be.

 

@All: Sadly only way i see to improve on present state is to reduce importance of helicopter transport.

 

Edit: Or there could be credit/point system for pilots. If they are succesfuly transporting players they earn credits which they can use to respawn helicopters. If they crash helicopters they could find themself without credits to spawn more and thus would be forced to disconect. That would remove the worst kind of "pilots".

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1 hour ago, Cebi said:

But when few people are bothered to read rules even less will be bothered to read some monument for decent pilots.

 

Well,most pub pilots are simply not aware of the rules and even usual EU1+2 pilots refer to "destroying rather than fixing" a broken chopper which "could" be prevented by adding the existing rules to the Notes of the mission or attaching a rather simple billboard nxt to hangars so you could refer to this before starting a useless argument or kicking them after several trys ...

I mean,the simple Rules page before spawning in the mission isnt really ... lets say detailed about the pilot rule change.

 

And pls keep off spreading rumors of so called "pink KUMAs" - we all know its a myth and will retain a myth untill certain individuals will worship the unstoppable power of the mighty pink Panzer and make em spawn stock once a clown connects to EU1 ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

See how i said "a clown" not "me" - selfishness doesnt come in pink,you know
;)

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3 hours ago, TheScar said:

 

Well,most pub pilots are simply not aware of the rules and even usual EU1+2 pilots refer to "destroying rather than fixing" a broken chopper which "could" be prevented by adding the existing rules to the Notes of the mission or attaching a rather simple billboard nxt to hangars so you could refer to this before starting a useless argument or kicking them after several trys ...

I mean,the simple Rules page before spawning in the mission isnt really ... lets say detailed about the pilot rule change.

 

And pls keep off spreading rumors of so called "pink KUMAs" - we all know its a myth and will retain a myth untill certain individuals will worship the unstoppable power of the mighty pink Panzer and make em spawn stock once a clown connects to EU1 ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

See how i said "a clown" not "me" - selfishness doesnt come in pink,you know
;)

Off topic but plz: 

 

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