pmcrugby

Let's just archive this thread, at this point there is nothing to gain by making more drama or digging up dirt. I get that there may be a different discussion to be had about Core Staff. But tbh I find the whole ordeal that happened on AW last summer a sad and disheartening part of my Arma career. AW will always be the place I started in Arma, and I think it's the same for many.
So lets reminisce on the good points, not a low point. Use a different thread to discuss a different situation.
Happy new year!

Let's just archive this thread, at this point there is nothing to gain by making more drama or digging up dirt. I get that there may be a different discussion to be had about Core Staff. But tbh I find the whole ordeal that happened on AW last summer a sad and disheartening part of my Arma career. AW will always be the place I started in Arma, and I think it's the same for many.
So lets reminisce on the good points, not a low point. Use a different thread to discuss a different situation.
Happy new year!

Let's just archive this thread, at this point there is nothing to gain by making more drama or digging up dirt. I get that there may be a different discussion to be had about Core Staff. But tbh I find the whole ordeal that happened on AW last summer a sad and disheartening part of my Arma career. AW will always be the place I started in Arma, and I think it's the same for many.
So lets reminisce on the good points, not a low point. Use a different thread to discuss a different situation.
Happy new year!

Let's just archive this thread, at this point there is nothing to gain by making more drama or digging up dirt. I get that there may be a different discussion to be had about Core Staff. But tbh I find the whole ordeal that happened on AW last summer a sad and disheartening part of my Arma career. AW will always be the place I started in Arma, and I think it's the same for many.
So lets reminisce on the good points, not a low point. Use a different thread to discuss a different situation.
Happy new year!

Let's just archive this thread, at this point there is nothing to gain by making more drama or digging up dirt. I get that there may be a different discussion to be had about Core Staff. But tbh I find the whole ordeal that happened on AW last summer a sad and disheartening part of my Arma career. AW will always be the place I started in Arma, and I think it's the same for many.
So lets reminisce on the good points, not a low point. Use a different thread to discuss a different situation.
Happy new year!

Hmm yes I do wonder where Chris is at this time of need...
 
 

that looks so cool. however would it display bluefor even if bluefor tracker is turned off?
 

I normally try to avoid drama, but this seems important enough to weigh in so here is my 1 and only post on the topic:
 
This... a thousand times, this...

Just reading through the posts, it's clear that the issue isn't the rules, it's the communication, that people don't feel that they're being listened to in full and their comments taken on board. Don't let this become an issue scraped under the carpet with a solution of "We'll review the rules".

Regarding should the issue have been raised? Absolutely, it's something that needed clarifying
Should there have been any punishments or bad feeling generated from this in any direction? Absolutely not, common sense rules that this is no different to using another servers squad xml when playing. It's automated and not intentional.

That's all that needed to happen, just that. Instead we clearly have a huge communication issue leaving everyone feel aggrieved.
 
I am deeply sorry to see so many wonderful members of the team leave, they will all be greatly missed, and I hope to see them again some day, but I understand that feelings run deep and it can be hard to settle differences, and to recognise where apologies are owed. I just hope we learn the right lessons from this.
 
 - Andy / Nibbs99

Welcome to the community.

After playing I&A for a while, I finally decided to join the forums!
 
Don't mind me though, I'm just here to lurk and to have a good time 😄

Glad to be here 😊

I haven't read all of this thread so it may have already been said.
 
I believe one good thing that AW needs to return and stay is regular staff and player meetings. Host this regularly, have staff and community members work out points of discussion and stick to the routine.
 
In the past when AW had a rather large divide, this was a decision that was made and we managed regular community meetings where everyone had a chance to share their thoughts on improvements, have debates and also provide a time for staff to provide regular news for the community with real time feedback on what they thought.
 
I think fostering an environment of regular discussion and feedback in real time during regular meetings will help to reinforce that "stand by eachother" mentality that is seeming to be lacking recently and help to bring about new ideas on the regular to maintain focus.
 
I feel that this could all be planned out with a community meeting to let people take the stage and talk about what they would expect from these meetings and the best ways to do it. It may also help to get people together to chat and just have a fresh start if needed.
 
This was something that @PiranhA did a while back and I believe the fresh start then was one of the best things to happen. Just let bygones be bygones and let the community shape the way forward.

The way this thread is going is grand. That's something to appreciate.
 
From what I read, a good part of the dissatisfaction about the unit stemmed from the mission makers for the drop in AW players. I understand that and I think I can relate to the feelings involved.
To slowly lead that into a suggestion, I would mention that I didn't play those missions because the themes didn't interest me. Vietnam is not my cup of tea, but I played a couple for the banter. Star Wars was three standard deviations removed from what I like, as was Halo. About Star Wars, at least, I let Siege know after a TS poke that it wasn't for me. I think a similar thing held true for other players, in that it just wasn't their interest.
 
So my suggestion is to have regular polls and meetings. Have polls to gauge interests in future campaign ideas. If you are satisfied with the responses even if small, everyone involved can set their expectations correctly. If you're not, lead that into a discussion about why the interest is low and be open-minded to drop or adjust the idea.
 
Similarly, in particular for staff, have regular meetings. Monthly.
Most people avoid confrontation. That's natural and probably relatable. To foster constructive confrontations, the absolute best you can do is to foster a safe, supported platform for communication. Allow members of staff, perhaps even Vet-FA, to submit points for an agenda prior to the meeting, then go through them. If there's nothing, grand, you've spent a few minutes to leave the meeting in the knowledge that you're right as rain.
 
In the vein of safe communication, foster good feedback philosophy. The gamenight debriefs are once again a marvellous illustration of that, but it can go further: Praise in public, criticise in private. People experienced in HR are rolling their eyes now.
Over the years, I have been told that I don't look like staff, that I'm too nice. Good! That means you haven't been invited to a private chat by me.
The rules only allow for so much direct action. You have your hackers and your teamkillers, but situations like the topic at hand are not rare, as uncomfortable as they are. The elephant in the room was difficult to navigate around, so I can wager it was easier to stay in one corner with the people already there.
 
Artemis noted that the division was apparent long ago. Sadly, it wasn't to me. I was frustrated with some AWE decisions, which I aired, and I just reckoned that some animosity from the sidelines stemmed from a disagreement about creative directions. There was some pushback to an unconventional gamenight idea, plus the minor squabble about event sign-ups.
 
The rest of it, the real of it, was not once brought to my attention besides a salient question by a dev in #mission-makers about using Discord Rich Presence of our own.
 
A meeting could have cleared this up many months ago. What's done is done, but just perhaps that's something to take forward.

I agree that a review of the rules is needed, but i do not see need for us to massively change them. They are clear and consise. The issue, seems to have stemmed more from the investigation procedure carried out. The reason the report was filed was for the investigation to occur, it would be wrong of us to not question the report, from all angles and ask questions that people do not like because that is often where the truth lies. 
 
I agree that discussion is needed. But like everyone else here, Core was not aware it was a big deal as it was never actually discussed with us as a team until the report was filed.

A regular review if set rules is excellent in any case. The wonder of the internet is that it is everchanging and something new will always pop up. Times change and events arise, like this one, that will require us to review the rules we have set in place.

A clarification in regards to what constitutes recruitment, and how Admin reports are handled are some straight forward points.
I think some guidelines on how to address and convey these types of reports publicly should also be considered.
 
I'm very glad this post was here to air our grievances, listen to each other and now move forward from it. Props to everyone for their contribution. Your efforts are greatly appreciated! (by me, but I'm sure I'm not the only one.)

Yesterday was the first I heard of this, so I dont have all the facts and all of that.
I've been trying to comment on this since yesterday, but I find it really difficult and I don't know what to say. 
It kinda feels like i'm the child of some messy divorce

That being said, its important to me that AhoyWorld is an open community where you are free to roam between here and other places, even as staff.
No one can force anyone to stay here.
As long as you are doing your job as staff here as well as expected of you, then you can do whatever you want wherever you want as long as you are not representing AW.
Whether you can take on staff roles at other places aswell, might be a different story, but I don't think that has happened here? 
 
I would also like to say that no one can blame the one making the report.
A report is simply saying that "Hello, there is something here I think you should have a look at. Here is what I see, do what you would like with this information".
It's then up to the ones who receive this report to decide what to do with it and how to deal with it.
 
I cannot say anything about how the case was handled, as I first learned of it yesterday.
What I will say is that I think there should be a full postmortem with a blameless root cause analysis where you go over why this happened, why the outcome became as it did (And what the outcome is, I don't feel like this has fully played out yet), and what we should do to prevent this in the future.
This has to be led by corestaff (Or a mediator, but they would need full access to the report and all the closed forums involved in this).
It would also have to include the reporter, the one being reported on, all the corestaff and anyone who decided to step down and leave, in order to get the full picture.
 
I would like to challenge all the involved party members to participate in this as it will help not only AW grow, but the whole arma community. (It might also be good for all the parties to get to talk together with everyone having good intentions)
 
Lastly, I would like to say that while this sucks, there are a lot of people here showing a lot of emotions, which tells me one thing:
WE ALL CARE DEEPLY FOR AHOYWORLD!
We might not always agree on the path we should take or how to get there, but in the end, I see a whole lot of people that care a lot and that is good.
It also means that tempers flare sometimes and feelings get the upper hand.
We are all humans, we all make mistakes, including staff.
 
 

Unfortunately that now seems like a necessity.
 
Realistically it should have been in place (and might have) from the start but it now seems inevitable that it is needed.
 
(I'm also in the same boat and don't know all the details as I can only see the fallout.)
 
As I was going to check out the discord before reconnecting and playing for a bit I noticed people were missing. And that should be the first tell. People shouldn't be missing. Just a thought.
 
That being said I hate to see old friends and people I respect fighting and bickering like this.
 
I really hope you all manage to find a solution here and return to something like it used to be.
 
Just my 2p

Alright, now that this has calmed down a bit: What can we learn from this? What steps can we take to avoid such situations in the future?
 
For instance, it seems to me(*) that some of the rules should be reconsidered, updated, adjusted and clarified (after appropriate community discussion).
I am also under the impression that it would be beneficial to define mandatory procedures and requirements for Admin Reports and Staff Demotions, ideally as part of the rules.
 
What do you think?
 
(*) I was not involved in this conflict and did not know it existed until yesterday.

@Noah_Hero my sources and the information about attaining certain perks with those medals came from outside of AW, just to make it clear... i didnt take it as face value, i trust those who gave me the information, but im fully aware the information could be and very well might be either outdated, or second hand, hence i stressed the point of due process

I would have been ok with any outcome. I was just doing my job. I also do not feel that my report was placed with gut feelings as I had sat on it for close to two months and presented what I felt was a succinct picture of the situation. Whether or not Core Staff agreed is not the reason I subsequently decided to step down from my duties. This was before any outcome had been concluded and well before Norris left the community. 
 
I felt like I was treated like I didn’t know what I was talking about. I felt invalidated and that my understanding of the rules was wrong. I was cut off and not given time to speak when pulled into a meeting. I am a proud person and do not appreciate being treated like I am a child people don’t have patience for. At least, that was my experience at the time.
 
The way I see this is no single person as at fault as it has been a series of badly handled events and people waiting around for other people to talk about the elephant in the room. This falls on the people the report was made about too. The divisions were seen well before all this blew up.
 
I was in the middle of this storm. There are many things people have said here that I feel are simply not accurate nor respectful of those who opted to leave. making statements about things  after the fact does nothing to better what has happened.
 
It’s done. And I am sorry to comment again but this be the last I say on this matter and urge everyone to just move on. Bickering and pointing fingers is not going to bring people back here.

Note to all members from the Core Staff team:
 
As several of you have already noted the public staff team has been reduced in number, I will detail here what information I can while respecting the privacy and confidence of those involved.
 
On May 20th Core staff received an admin report (Note 1) against 2 members of staff. Within 3 hours a member of Core Staff concluded in favour of the report and took action against one of the reported parties, removing them from a staff role they held, this is not in line with the standard practice for admin reports (Note 2). 
 
In the days that followed Core Staff followed the procedure noted below in Note 2. 
We believe that our ability to investigate the situation in the manner described in Note 2 was harmed by the way the report was handled initially. This fostered an "Us V Them" mentality and likely led to the reactions explained in the next paragraph.
 
During this time following the demotion of a staff member, several members of staff aware of the demotion and of the admin report (aware of its existence but with no access to its content) came to the conclusion that the reported persons were guilty and should be banned. 
Some even stated that they would resign should Core Staff not find in their favour.
Core Staff asked for calm while they completed a proper investigation into the matter.
 
Following the several day investigation Core Staff met and reviewed all the gathered and available information and found that there was no clear evidence that a rule had been broken. There was what could be called circumstantial evidence but nothing more. 
 
A number of members of staff unhappy with decision resigned, including the member of Core Staff who had acted in error in the first instance.
 
Core staff believe that they acted with fairness to all parties in mind.
We would be setting a worrying precedent if staff members were allowed to dictate who was guilty without reviewing the evidence first, especially in the case of an admin report. (Note 3) 
 
I would like to stress that other than the person described above no members were removed from a staff role.
 
The nature of these events is unfortunate and regrettable.  Many of the staff members who resigned were members whom I call my friends, and I along with the rest of the Core Staff team would like to thank them for all they have done for Ahoyworld during their tenure and wish them the best in the future. 
 
If anyone has any questions relating to this please direct them to me and I will be happy to share any information I can while respecting the privacy of those involved.
 
Regards,
Midnight
 
 
Note 1
An Admin report is the tool available for members to submit a report relating to a member of staff. It is similar to that of the "Player Report" function except an Admin Report is visible to Core Staff only. Both can be found along the top bar of the forum under the report heading.
 
 
Note 2
The normal procedure when Core Staff receive an admin report is to spend a number of days speaking to those involved and collating all available information on the matter before meeting as a team and reviewing the information gathered and making a decision on the matter.
This allows Core Staff to  investigate a situation thoroughly, with discretion taking our time to come to a fair conclusion on the issues reported.
 
Note 3
Staff members are routinely included and their conclusions used in respect of player reports but not Admin reports as it would not be appropriate. 

This has been a really long month for those of us embroiled in this directly. I do not appreciate the peanut gallery and backseat drivers for making this needlessly more complex, and I am immensely sad that people who I respect immensely have made the decision to leave the staff team. I feel this has made Ahoyworld measurably weaker, but I implore you to not be strangers.
 
I think that no staff are above scrutiny and I willingly have presented CS many records of past events in the belief that truth will out and that they can only act on complete information.
 
This information is not available to people below CS by design. Nobody below the CS grade has the full information - not even the person that made the report or the people who were reported. I can happily inform you that the first notification I had to say that I was reported was after action had already been taken against me. This is not our procedure here.
 
This thread has revealed some incredibly incorrect information that is being repeated as truth. This is only possible if people have been discussing something without the full information and allowed it to prejudice them. If this incorrect information was actually correct, then some of the conclusions that people have arrived at would be correct. However...
 
Objective and impartial due process is all that matters when making decisions as a moderator. If we start moderating based on gut feelings we lose the ability to function as a community where people feel safe to have different personalities and are all interesting as individuals - and this is one of the big draws of Ahoyworld. The community is fantastic.
 
I am disappointed that some people with concerns did not make efforts to make them known as soon as they became concerned. Your watchful inaction meant there was more to blow up when things eventually went wrong. I do not know if things would have gone better if the CS reaction to the report had been more comprehensive before a decision was made, but what's done is done.
 
I have also thanked Artemis for her report, as I want to foster a culture where we are all accountable for our actions. Nobody that submits a report that they feel is for the betterment of Ahoyworld can or should be blamed for what happens as a consequence of that report, and I am completely confident that she had Ahoyworld's best interests at heart.
 
I am not going to bear grudges from this, and I will be happy to see any of you in TS or in game.
 
In the spirit of communication, my DMs are open, either here or on discord.

For those who care about this already, it will be no secret that I was one of the admins playing somewhere else and reported to be recruiting for that place.
 
One point in @Gambit's first post illustrates quite well how the situation was blown out of proportions based on falsehoods. The supposed multiple credible sources as stated in his post have conjectured an outside impression as fact. Frankly I would suspect this is the theme for most of the situation up to the report. No, you don't get admin or Zeus for collecting medals.
 
From there, I would like to start identifying the crux of it. Several people have already duly pointed it out: Communication.
I have been playing with that unit since the end of January. In these five months, I had had no points of communication from any other member of staff as to the nature of my stay there nor that I was to stop. It was a known secret from the start, but I had no qualms about it. I joined it during a phase of AW gamenights that did not interest me, such as Star Wars, and I had been itching to play larger-scale missions. My intention from the start was to enjoy one or two of those a month, having laid out a schedule for myself to play D&D on Sundays, clashing with the big missions there, and split myself for one event in both, here on AW and there.
 
Here I will point out that the Discord Rich Presence mod was active twice in my case, when I had forgotten to disable it.
 
At one point, I made good on a promise I had given a good friend to teach them about team leadership and tactics. I figured it's easier with a team to demonstrate with, so I invited others who have expressed interest in learning about it on their own accord. We did this on my local machine while on the AW TS. There was no affiliation with the other unit. Neither was there any semblance of milsim advocating besides trying to teach something proper, to pass on as playing by example like the AWE Veteran Programme already attempts to foster.
 
Afterwards, I was told that an outside party was not happy with this. I figured they just wanted to be kept in the loop, so I noted that for next time, created a staff post asking what we think about trainings moving forward and closed that book. Had it been a big deal, I thought, I would have been approached about it. I was not.
 
During all of this I was actively aiding the development of Frontlines spearheaded only by Dom and myself. Outreach under my lead was set to begin a new initiative of social engagement and even art commissions.
I can say without qualms once again that my interests lay squarely with AW.
 
Still a month before the report, I pinged Core Staff in a staff Discord channel in a rather inconsiderate manner to point out a lack of communication regarding AWE matters. This was minutes before an Outreach meeting and I was in voice chat with staff who were not in the other unit. Due to my frustration, I mentioned how refreshing it was to have good communication at the other place, naming it clearly in the knowledge it was already an open secret. I outlined their procedures and philosophy and held them in high regard during this.
 
I still hope and stand by my opinion that we can discuss the accomplishments and shortfalls of other communities by virtue of example, without taking it as advocating for or against migrating.
 
For several days surrounding this, but particularly a few days later, I noticed that a member of Core Staff was shadowing us on TS. When I switched channels, so did they, but they never spoke up. I had my TS set up to connect me to the Admin Atoll, because it is a better look than sitting in AFK-ish since I looked able to respond to inquiries. As soon as somebody else was in there with me, so was the member of CS. At one point thereafter, they sprang on the exact moment I was alone and started to interrogate me about supposed slandering of CS or recruiting for the other unit. This is recorded.
 
This was the first time I had ever heard this was a concern. It was a decidedly dysfunctional way to begin the conversation.
 
It was also the last time there was any attempt at communication prior to the report. I offered. I got no response.
 
The report itself has been discussed at length in the thread. I don't know its contents or what incident it refers to.
 
For me, none of this was ever a personal matter. It still isn't. The report was made with the right intentions and I will support it, because I have all faith that it was made from genuine concern.
 
The report simply enabled a pervasive grudge working its way through the backstage to be brought to the foreground.
 
When I resigned, I left an open letter to staff and in it mentioned in what light I came to see AhoyWorld. It's a place of mates. It's a place to meet new people, hear new voices and the stories they tell when you otherwise wouldn't. Most gaming communities get their people through active recruiting. Very few places live off their innate draw, yet AW does. You want to stay for the people, because AW is not competing as the best. It doesn't pretend to be either.
 
When I realised I am serving as a wedge to drive people apart, I chose to leave. If there's a regret I have about this, it's that my wedge-like state wasn't communicated to me earlier for me to leave earlier.
 
In the end, I would like to echo a sentiment from my resignation and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up verbatim.
 
When I first came back last year, could you imagine my delight when everyone stayed for the gamenight debrief? There was feedback, criticism, praise. Every single game turned into an opportunity to be better than the one before.
If nothing else, I would ask to carry that spirit forward into more of what you do. Talk. Find common ground and define boundaries. Lift each other up through adversity and confrontation by knowing you will get through it when you realise you're rigging the same ship.
 
There's my naval pun in an otherwise far too dry post.

I didn't really want to comment here, as I didn't, and still don't, know exactly what happened. In fact, today was the first time I'd heard at all about all this, and in truth this thread, whilst being a good thing, has made me a little sad. It is a good thing to air grievances, but unfortunately bickering from either side is never productive, and it's sad to see it from some well known and well respected members of this group.
I may be an Ahoyworld newbie, I've barely been here more than 6 months, and some of you have been moderating forums etc for longer than I've been alive, but I feel I have got to know many of you quite well since I've been here, and I've made some good friends, unfortunately some of whom I will almost definitely see less now this has happened. 
 
At it's base level, this is a community based on arma (and squad (-: ) primarily. None of us (at least I hope) are here for the politics, and if you are, you're in the wrong place in my eyes. We're here to play arma, with, in my (possibly a little biased) opinion some of the best public servers around, some fabulous scheduled ops, and the best and friendliest online community I've been a part of. I hope I still see many of you on EU1&2, or playing along with AWE and ops, even if you take a less involved role or stop interacting with the social side of the community altogether, but overall I hope no one truly falls out. There's a good number of friends here for a reason, but if you do leave, I hope you find another group that's as friendly and accommodating as all of you have been to me, and hopefully we'll bump into each other again in the future.
 
As I said, I don't know enough about this to make a decision, so I'm keeping a neutral view. If anyone wants to rant, complain, or just chat about this or anything else, feel free to PM me.

I hate to get involved here but, unfortunately due to the way that said community works. DC rich presence is a vital part of the framework. It isn't an optional mod like on AW. Yes discussions have been made about it and whether it can be turned off or hidden but my conclusion was that if it becomes taboo then it feels wrong.As @MidnightRunner put DC rich presence isn't a form of recruiting the same way that having DC display that I am playing Minecraft or another game isn't recruiting. I among most on ahoyworld have other enjoyments and dislikes outside AW or even arma. It is sad to see this spiral and people take their sides but I will still be friends with as many as possible!