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An Open, Constructive Platform Discussing The Current Issues Within Ahoyworld


Xwatt
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1 hour ago, Xwatt said:

The issue comes when it is from a community that openly incentivises and rewards players for recruiting within their own, and other communities

The community in question of this incident doesn't really reward you for such things. You can only get a "medal" on your website-profile (which no ones lookes at anyways because the profiles only serve to slot for missions and track training progress and everything social runs via discord).

 

1 hour ago, Xwatt said:

In this, they create a discourse and divide in other communities, and as a result gain a healthy boost within their own playerbase, without any repercussions or remorse about the divide they create in other communities.

The community in question doesn't do this actively. I have been asked multiple times if my other community (AW) is fine with multi-community-members.

I, as well as others, also informed AW Staff about playing there. I even informed CS about how everyone of us found out about that community and when he joined, and the response I got was that it is fine as they never actively recruited us.

 

We're literally just a bunch of friends who play there as well. Obviously we are there because of each other, like I for example told Sack, Jochem and Jasman about the community and they joined. I don't think that is recruitment of players off from AW though because sure we know each other from AW but I didn't just randomly messaged people via the AW discord but e.g. told them to check the community out during an online-party I did...so something completely unrelated to AW and I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

 

 

EDIT:

Also their "recruited by" remark on their profiles isn't anything that is verified. When applying to their community you can just select whoever you want. And unfortunately this whole thing originated out of a new applicant, who plays at AW as well, just selecting the first name he recognized even though he wasn't actually "recruited" by him.

 

Also to get onto:

Quote

if the member of CS who stepped down was so wrong, why did half the staff team leave with him?  While I understand there were guidelines to follow in how a report should be handled, the lack of input from the other members of staff and the wider community in general, made the final decision seem like it benefitted the bias of CS rather than what the community themselves felt was the right decision to make.

I have no idea why they stepped down as well, but does it matter really if they felt it was just or unjust? I don't think so, as there are rules and if something isn't against the rules, then you cannot just call the suspect guilty anyways because a part of the staff feel like it. Those decisions should never be made due to any community imput but solely based on the rules. That is literally the reason why no one, who isn't involved, is allowed to comment under ban-appeals.

Edited by Noah_Hero
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3 hours ago, Xwatt said:

It’s evident from Sieges and many other people’s operations, where he now has to scale his operations down to accommodate for the lack of players, rather than creating these massive, expansive operations

While I want to remain neutral, this point is excellent. 

We are lacking players and I've had to cancel two otherwise perfectly accomedative operations because of this. 

 

Knowing what has happened on (almost) every side of this drama, I know that every decision made by individuals can be defended. When I found out about the whole charades, I didn't care initially until we started dropping in numbers, that's when I started having an unsatisfied attitude towards the ordeal. While I know some of the members of this other community is still playing from time to time, I still see a lack of attendence in general.

 

As a mission maker, I want players to attend gamenights.

As a veterinarian & critically acclaimed diplomat within AW, I find it sad to loose so many friends, regular players and staff members because of this.

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You all know me, im not chiming in on everything on the forums, and when i do i usually make some ppl mad, thats almost a given, but you cant make scrambled eggs without breaking some (l)eggs, so here are my 2 cents, as a simple member who cares.

 

I understand both sides of the argument, and without pulling in personal experience from interactions with the multitude of ppl i met here and my personal conclusions about said ppl's characters, i agree with the CS decision, although it is definitely a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" case. It should be clear, accusations are not enough, no matter how strongly we agree with said accusations and how strongly we feel its right. It would be nice, but sadly, we cant. I would have been banned for multiple lifetimes on the grounds of pissing ppl off if that would be the case ;)


On the united front of CS, well @Xwatt, me and you go way back on disagreeing and agreeing on millions of things, and with your phrasing i cant agree. The drama lama is dancing amongst CS and you chose your words poorly in this instance painting a dark tone future. Cheer up bud, everything will be allright.

 

Personally i think the ppl will prevail, friendships will survive, and to be fair... i dont give a f*ck about who plays where and with who. On the other hand, if somebody has a role, and accepts a certain package of responsibilities in another community i find it hardly beliveable to uphold two rule sets on two communities, have the same amount of focus and enthusiasm on both places at the same time, and with every job, if you cant do it you are either honest about it and say it, step down.

 

I, personally, think, no matter what, a CS decision should be respected, im pretty sure they put their time in it (just looking at how much time has passed since the report and the conclusion, seeing the core staff channel filled, mods being kidnapped from other channels with the sentence of "hey, do you have a minute to talk"), and we all have lives, jobs, that demands our attention, and just to remind everyone, CS was chosen specifically because of their skillset to juggle their responsibilities, so blaming CS for "the lack of swift action" is uncalled for. Please be respectful as you called everyone to do so, and as former CS you should know what its like to have responsibilities on multiple fronts, how much sacrifice is goint into maintaining a community. Plus if its not an open and shut case, discussions has to happen, the more ppl involved the longer the discussions will take, etc etc. Whats more important, stopping the drama quickly or being thorough, cant have both, back to damned if you do damned if you dont.

 

Blaming gamenight player turnout on the commmunity being torn apart by petty drama and bruised egos is another thing. Before the whole drama, gamenights had different turnouts, i have my reasons why i dont attend every gamenight, but to list a few, theme is not interesting for me (lasers and arma doesnt mix for me), some mission expectations are a no for me (ie pvp focused, forced to something i dont want to), i dont enjoy the zeus' playstyle running the gamenight, im fed up with arma in general for a week, installed game i have in my library since 2013 and booted it up for the first time and got sucked into it, and the list goes on.
Ppl look for big scale operatons, more milsim, etc, and yet the gamenights were frequently disrespected, "just for the memes", doing stupid things like mass tk at the end, etc. Thats why the turnouts are low, trust was ruined by differing expectations, not because we cant have more milsim, or cant have big scale missions, and need to find another community to satisfy that need. To be fair, i dont want to sit and do hoops in virtual boot camp, once was enough. I strongly advise ppl who crave for that to get off yer ass and find the neares recruiting office and sign up for real. If i wanted ppl to call me sir every damn minute, i would have never left. Thats my take on tryhard milsim armchair generals. Wanna do it like for real? Do it for real then.

 

On the transparency note, it goes both ways. If you dont tell CS when there might be potential conflict of interest, there will be fallout when (not if, its a when because ppl will talk) they find out. If you dont have anything to hide,.... thats up for the reader's interpretation. Ive been open about playing other games, with other ppl, or other servers if ppl ask (i know, sacrilege) and i dont hold, never intend to, any responsible position in this community other than being the guy who says stuff nobody dares to. I can understand not spreading the drama far and wide, contain it to staff who has to make a decision, nobody else, just like the ban appeals. (i might be partially better off than most of ya, im not in discord so i missed the daily *pling, pling* drama updates and side dms of "have you heard..", i have enough drama in my life hence why im not on discord)

 

Blaming CS for NOT discussing the whole drama WHILE the investigation and conversations WAS STILL IN PROGRESS is a bad route to go down. I would much rather have a clear, consice decision, with clear path on how CS ended up on a decision then have constant update and backtracking on previous updates about the drama while in progress just to shove it out the doors and inform everyone hows it going. Im pretty sure thats what made ppl fed up with the issue and just tired to the point when they dont even want to log on, cuz they dont want another "hey have you heard that x told..."
For example, if i get banned i would much rather have an explanation from yall why, instead of me looking at a forum link to appeal a ban and explain why i think its unjust (i dont think i need to bring up specific cases, right?). I can stand behind CS decision of innocent until proven guilty and the proof of burden lies with the accusator instead of the accused, proper examination of evidence instead of rushed decision because thats what the community wants. I have seen thousands of situations in my career where you leave the decision up to the masses it will always produce a huge bias. Its not about whats right, its about what can be proven.


On the other hand i find it funny that outreach doing the reverse outreach instead of trying to implement what other playstyle you want here. I mean, cmon, the whole point of EU1 is if you want to play a certain style, you will find some random ppl wanting the same tagging along, how much harder is it to ask whos in, lets do it... or at least try. Much harder to build something from nothing, than get in on something already built. But thats just my opinion.

 

On the front of "divide within CS" and "not a monarchy", well, thats what democracy is, there will always be divide amongst ppl, even on the smallest and most meaningless matters. If you call for a united front of CS, thats a dictatorship in disguise. Whos voice should be the one to follow? The problem lies with ppl not handling said divide, just "you dont agree with me? well see ya then...poof" instead of trying to reach a concensus and understand every move is a precedent setting case, rules applied, community will look back years later for guidance.

 

Its said to see ppl go, oldtimers aswel. Not everything will ever go however you want it, and the sooner yall accept it, the sooner yall get over the drama lama. Welcome to real life. I know this will hurt some feelings, and you all know what my stance on that is.

 

Life will find a way, ppl will come and play arma, AW stood for a long time and sure it will still be here when arma5 releases, heck not uncommon to see eu1 filled to the brim on some days and have 15-20 ppl on prarie fire at the same time. So i think the turnout on different gamenights is more of a reflection on the style and theme appealing to a more foused subset of interest rather than struggling to get new players to engage. I know i personally skipped gamenights just because it wasnt for my taste. Having those smaller number gamenights can show the interest of the community, and they are good to satisfy the needs of the few for their sacrifice on attending the more populated and laid back gamenights.
 
That being said, the community lives because of the players, not because who is at the reins and what decisions they make if they make it by the rules and apply it equally fair instead of going for what feels right. And thats why i personally think whoever is on any responsible role and holds another at a different community will not have the time to mingle and get to know the community, keep their fingers on the pulse of the community.

 

And yes, i think the incentivicasion of recruitment (attaining zeus or admin priviledges with said medals on a webprofile insted of meritocracy at least thats what i heard from multiple credible sources, but i dont know much about that other community, thankfully have no personal experience with them, not here to advertise their greatness on how they handle things, to be frank i dont care at all) is bad enough, but its down to individual cases. I can understand the time needed to evaluate said cases, and happy to see it thoroughly investigated instead of applying a blanket ban/no ban statement rushed out the doors just to please the masses with pitchforks and torches. Lack of discussion and information, i see no reason to involve for example me in the decision, its the rules, agree or disagree, im here to have fun not get involved in drama, so i have no issue about not knowing what was happening and why until a decision was made. And if you ever ask me to sit down and read the gods knows however many pages of accumulate evidence and screenshots and all that crap, i'll beat you to death with a god damn rubber ducky.

 

Most importantly, if we cant be honest with ourselves and admit when we made a mistake, how do we ask others to be honest with us. Losing years of friendships doesnt worth it. In my opinion, the ppl causing the issue moved on, unhindered by the drama, so why are we still spinning on this, just to make our days miserable? I say

 

#DramaLamaGoAway

 

Im still around on TS, and ill be as long as fun ppl are around, made some friends disagreed with them on a lot of things and agreed on a few more, and im not about to sacrifice the possibility of meeting new ones just because i have to sort out the not so friendly ones or have some disagreement sometimes. Even tho i disagree with you @Xwatt on a few points and how your call to open discussion's tone is shaping some ppls opinion already without prior knowledge on what actually happened or with partial information, i still think you are an honourable c*nt, we can agree to disagree sometimes.

 

Cheers

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At this stage there is little to do or say that will make this situation better. All I know is that rules are supposed to be clear and concise for all to follow and adhere to. If there is this much division between what breaking the rules actually entails, then perhaps this needs to be looked at.

 

it also took Core Staff far too long to respond to the issue and I feel that the statement issued by Core Staff is not only erroneous but doesn’t show the big picture and how the awareness of this situation has been going on for months now.

 

it doesn’t matter what I say. I feel like this whole thing blew up the way it did because of avoidance and poor management. I feel like the resignation of many staff was not addressed and instead their opinions dismissed. 
 

Cheers Ahoy. It’s been a blast and I do hope some of you will still be in touch.

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Been here since 2012/2013 ish and seen more than enough quarrels and problems that tear the community apart. Hell, I've been involved in more than enough of them.

 

I tire of getting involved now though. For good or worse, I've seen the damage.

 

I can't really say for sure as I have not a full clue what has been happening. However, this seems reminiscent of the 2015(ish) dillema where a metric crap ton of staff and community members left over possibly the biggest divide I have seen in this community. It seems clear to me that there has been one hell of a disagreement of sorts between group A and group B, but again, I don't understand what has happened fully. I just hope that we get a good end result from all this as we did from the old divide so to speak.

 

Things'll pick up then probably fall again. I feel it's a natural progression at this point and the staff are not really all to blame, nor are the players. I just feel that ArmA is a dying game and it's hard to build a popular community from it. You've just got to hope that you keep the people that you got and maintain numbers but naturally things can either become boring or disagreements are made and people leave.

 

I don't have any problems if players or staff wanna leave to find new places to play. If they wanna bring people with them then hey, whatever makes them happy. The thing that's always kept AhoyWorld together though is that there will always be someone here who remains fiercely loyal to keeping it afloat. I respect those that manage that because I doubt I'd handle the heat.

 

Many-a-times I've considered leaving this community. From one shit show to another or one disagreement to the next. However I've never really managed it, I've looked around and never found a community that has what this has. I have good friends within this community and without it, I never would have met them. As I'm sure many others have. So long as there are great people to hang out with here, I don't see any major problems.

 

Either way, I'm on this ship whether it sinks or gets tugged to brighter waters.

 

Obligatory naval pun completed

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I had to step down. All the information I have had access to indicates very strongly that things were and are not ok, rules have in fact been broken by staff. I cannot pass Judgement on people for say simply sharing an discord link on EU1 if AWE staff are allowed to advertise and recruit for another communitiy.

 

It is a shame that stepping down was the only option left to many admins since discussing the issue with core staff became impossible. Even core staff were divided so badly that Norris just left.

 

At this point I believe everything is said and done for my part, my decision was not hasty, I researched a lot, I have discussed the situation with many people, I have also had access to the admin report submitted for quite some time now. The same report was shared with me from more than one source and I consider these sources trust worthy. The situation is worse than it has been for a long time on Ahoy. I hope @Minipily is right, I hope Ahoy can rise from the ashes yet again. Though sadly I think it becomes a little harder every time. It takes a lot of work and very special leader ship and I am not quite sure we have what it takes right now.

In-spite off all of this I look fondly back at my time as staff on Ahoy World. It's been an incredible journey filled with a lot of action, fun and friendship. There has obviously been a few bumps along the way but all in all a most excellent experience. Thank you everyone.

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Honestly, I'm sick of being polite, I'm sick of trying to be fair in this fucking witch hunt. 

You of all people, our ex community referee, should understand the burden of proof.

The burden of proof was never satisfied, you would know this is you stayed around long enough to see the detailed report to staff from CS.

 

I am also very disappointed that many "pillars of the community" would have been passing around a document supposed to be privy to Core Staff only. 
There is only 2 places that could come form, the person who filed the report or the poor member of Core Staff who resigned after being disagreed with.  

 

Fuck this victim complex. You among others tried to undermine the application of Ahoyworlds principles in some failed attempt to get your own way. The mob mentality ruled.

But no Core Staff taking time to properly investigate and not just blindly ban people without evidence makes us the bad guys.

 

Get real.

 

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17 minutes ago, Gambit said:

On the united front of CS, well @Xwatt, me and you go way back on disagreeing and agreeing on millions of things, and with your phrasing i cant agree. The drama lama is dancing amongst CS and you chose your words poorly in this instance painting a dark tone future. Cheer up bud, everything will be allright

 

Maybe the point I was trying to get across was unclear, and if that's the case then my apologies. What I aimed to highlight was that Ahoyworld always seems to has phases, some where we are at peak and everyone is enjoying the community, and some where we have a huge incident that happens and we are once again left in a "rebuilding phase." Like the incident that occured recently. What I aimed to highlight was that Ahoyworld needs to aim to have a solid foundation, where when incidents like this occur (which are inevitable) the community needs to be strong enough to quickly recover, rather than taking another two, three or however many years it will take to build up the playerbase again

 

22 minutes ago, Gambit said:

I, personally, think, no matter what, a CS decision should be respected, im pretty sure they put their time in it (just looking at how much time has passed since the report and the conclusion, seeing the core staff channel filled, mods being kidnapped from other channels with the sentence of "hey, do you have a minute to talk"), and we all have lives, jobs, that demands our attention, and just to remind everyone, CS was chosen specifically because of their skillset to juggle their responsibilities, so blaming CS for "the lack of swift action" is uncalled for. Please be respectful as you called everyone to do so, and as former CS you should know what its like to have responsibilities on multiple fronts, how much sacrifice is goint into maintaining a community. Plus if its not an open and shut case, discussions has to happen, the more ppl involved the longer the discussions will take, etc etc. Whats more important, stopping the drama quickly or being thorough, cant have both, back to damned if you do damned if you dont.


I love all my friends in the Core Staff team, we left on good terms and I always try to check in when I can. But just because they are Core Staff, and they are the highest ranking, in no shape or form should that make them invincible to scrutiny - perhaps quite the opposite. And this in no shape or form means I don't appreciate the time or effort they put in, in fact I believe that most the time their hard work goes unnoticed, and I made this evident in my nominations for the AW end of year rewards. But having such a high rank and responsibility puts them in the centre of spotlight for attention, hence why they seem to get pulled up for scrutiny every time an incident occurs. And it's for good reason, being CS means that you have the responsibility of driving the future of the whole community, and this privilege should be respected, and therefore can be open to scrutiny as any job is. I can disagree and have civil discussion against the way they may run things, but you will never ever see me discredit them as a person.

 

33 minutes ago, Gambit said:

Its said to see ppl go, oldtimers aswel. Not everything will ever go however you want it, and the sooner yall accept it, the sooner yall get over the drama lama. Welcome to real life. I know this will hurt some feelings, and you all know what my stance on that is.

 

Of course, many people have come and gone in the history of AW. But what is perhaps the most distressing about this one is that the staff members who departed were perfectly happy with their role before said incidents occurred, and therefore loss of staff could theoretically been prevented. 

 

36 minutes ago, Gambit said:

Life will find a way, ppl will come and play arma, AW stood for a long time and sure it will still be here when arma5 releases, heck not uncommon to see eu1 filled to the brim on some days and have 15-20 ppl on prarie fire at the same time. So i think the turnout on different gamenights is more of a reflection on the style and theme appealing to a more foused subset of interest rather than struggling to get new players to engage. I know i personally skipped gamenights just because it wasnt for my taste. Having those smaller number gamenights can show the interest of the community, and they are good to satisfy the needs of the few for their sacrifice on attending the more populated and laid back gamenights.

 

I have no doubt that AW will live on, it has despite much bigger bullshit being thrown at it in the past, but as mentioned before that isn't the point of this post. What I was aiming to show is that as a community we can't be having these divides so often, because more often than not it hinders our development more than it benefits us.

 

6 hours ago, Xwatt said:

, I want this thread to be a civilised, open platform for Ahoyworld. Respect the privacy of others, and more importantly keep it constructive and make it somewhere where we can state our desires for the community

 

also @MidnightRunner I shouldn't be the one having to tell you to tone it down, there are many times as CS I have wanted to act out, but a true leader keeps a level head, even in the most difficult of situations. It is nor a good look for yourself or Ahoyworld. 

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3 minutes ago, Xwatt said:

 

also @MidnightRunner I shouldn't be the one having to tell you to tone it down, there are many times as CS I have wanted to act out, but a true leader keeps a level head, even in the most difficult of situations. It is nor a good look for yourself or Ahoyworld. 

 

Xwatt been gone all of 5 minutes and he's already becoming the father figure of the community.

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I'm saddened at the loss of staff but most of all of the breakdown in communication. There has been a clear lack of it from many of us. In my line of work there is a saying that assumptions kill as without being certain of a situation you can't make a decision that's right for what you face. Though I can't say for certain I get the feeling that a lot of things have been based on emotion and assumptions. This in itself is based on assumptions and partial information, and as mentioned, those kill. I hope you won't filify me for that but with it hope to create some understanding and perspective from my end. I am glad CS ultimately took the time to evaluate everything ensuring there would be as little room to make assumptions.

Could this have gone faster, yes. But it's fair to say that Core Staff, as well as regular Staff are not full-time employees. We all put in our effort on a basis of free will, Which means we may not always have the time do something in an adequate time frame. Furthermore we are all free to act as we please in response to things. By this I mean that resigning as Staff is a decision I can respect albeit I am saddened by the decision.

Each community provides something else and I love Ahoy for what it offers. I see myself sitting in channels with others playing games that aren't ARMA. Even sitting in a channel with others playing a game is grand. I can't see myself doing that with any of the other groups I am a part of. The social interaction and the warmness of everyone is a reason I brought Ares along so she could experience that too. I really hope that this is not tarnished after this event. I consider all of you friends even if I don't talk to you equally often. and hope to see you regularly on the AW Teamspeak.

In that sense I would like to call for a calm discussion much like Xwatt just did. Emotions can boil over and we can't always be delicate with what we say. Though as the community we are I am certain we can let any emotional load slide and take what we read critically and respectfully. We are all here to make AhoyWorld better. We each have different ideas of how to do that and by working together, compromising and talking it out we can achieve this. No one is infallible and we should be able to question things. So let's do that evenly and as unbiased as we are capable of while looking for a place to settle in the middle we can all agree on.

 In this thread so far we all agree on a number of things, even if the way we say it obscures that. Props to Xwatt for making the post so we can talk it out!
 

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4 minutes ago, Xwatt said:

therefore loss of staff could theoretically been prevented. 

well, with totally discarding due process, theoretically, yes. Toss out the rules to prevent unforseen future events and how ppl would react, predict the future, thats a feat no CS has ever posessed... hindsight is 20/20...

 

I think its better to have incidents thoroughly investigated rather than try to satisfy the feels. The aformentioned leak of a document and the conflicting personal recounts of events from multiple ppl (i heard, for some reason lot of you find me with "oh i had enough of this drama" and i frequently make the mistake of asking hows your day) leads me to the conclusion, the witchhunt as @MidnightRunner called it, turned into the game of "lost in translation", pass the bits and pieces of personal ideas/eperiences, colored with bias goes around, thats fcking gossip, and i dont want to be in a community which would ban me based on somebody having a massive chip on their shoulder and finding me in a bad mood then start gossipping around that im a bad influence (although its true, that doesnt count as evidence) and shall be removed from existence.

 

Due process, everyone follows, everyone is up to the same scrutiny.... everyone fights, nobody quits.

 

Its sad in this day and age, where shadowplay exists these kind of decisions must be made on personal recounts of events, forcing CS to take sides in a word against word battle is just plain stupid.

 

As i've been saying, the cause of the drama is totally fine, not affected by it, and yet we are here, about a month later still bitching about what could have been done. Dont get me wrong, reflecting on mistakes (not gathering enough evidence before we cry wolf for example) is a good thing, blaming one person whos hands were tied because of the way it was handled initially and blaming @MidnightRunner for calling a decision and following due process on a broken and partial case is unfair on so many levels. Everyone makes mistakes, we are all humans, mopping up after some other's mistakes and getting the blame for it is an absolute slog, i am not surprised the mood has been below the frog's ass all around.

 

I stand by due process, without it we all fall into chaos.

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26 minutes ago, MidnightRunner said:

Honestly, I'm sick of being polite, I'm sick of trying to be fair in this fucking witch hunt. 

You of all people, our ex community referee, should understand the burden of proof.

The burden of proof was never satisfied, you would know this is you stayed around long enough to see the detailed report to staff from CS.

 

I am also very disappointed that many "pillars of the community" would have been passing around a document supposed to be privy to Core Staff only. 
There is only 2 places that could come form, the person who filed the report or the poor member of Core Staff who resigned after being disagreed with.  

 

Fuck this victim complex. You among others tried to undermine the application of Ahoyworlds principles in some failed attempt to get your own way. The mob mentality ruled.

But no Core Staff taking time to properly investigate and not just blindly ban people without evidence makes us the bad guys.

 

Get real.

 

I really don't know how to respond to this tantrum.

You never shared any of your reasoning or even how you reached your conclusions. I saw very little transparency and a lot of trying to ignore the problem. I'm glad if you have released a final report by now, although it is way way too late. 
 

Did you imagine this was every only privy to Core Staff only? I can understand why Norris left if this is the tone you use when communication within Core Staff.

 

I do not have a victim complex, I am following what I believe is true and morally right. I believe one of the corner stones of Ahoy World was for the longest of times that the rules apply to all. I guess if believing that is undermining the application of Ahoyworlds principles then I am guilty.

 

My decision to step down was not taken lightly nor was it easy. It was taken due to the utter lack of proper communication from core staff. Quite frankly in the end I do get my way, since I do not want to be an administrator in an environment like this.

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Right. As I have nothing to lose, I am going to set something straight right here. I filed that that report. I do not mind who knows this anymore. Tiptoeing around these things has not done anyone any favors. I have done my level best to keep this from the community and to wear a happy smile and continue on, business as usual.

 

I did not not expect the whole situation to blow up as it did. But it has and this is due not the situation itself, but to lack of communication, allowing the gossip mills to turn. Did people approach me after they saw my resignation form Pub Mod? Yes they did. Did I answer them with my reasons why? Yes. Because Norris was gone. Because I believed things were not ok. 

 

I feel that my report, based upon personal accounts, observations and screenshots, was indeed an accurate representation and I will stand by this. It was not done in the manner of a witchhunt or because I had some grudge. To even assume that is an insult to the integrity I feel was part of the reason I was Staff in the first place. In fact, the two people are members I held in high esteem and considered friends at a stage. Therefore this was not an easy thing for me to do and I sat on a lot of what I knew for a long time before I felt it because necessary to do this. If not for immediate action then to provide an official record should it become even more necessary to do so.

 

I have 19 years of online community moderation and administration experience. I have walked these streets and knew the warning signs. I could also see the ever-growing fractures in the community long before taking action. Does this make me paranoid? Maybe. I still believe I was acting in in the best interests of the greater community and there was no malice from my side. Nor has there ever been malice. I was a Moderator doing my job and following due diligence.

 

I have lost a community that in part saved me the past few months. I have lost friends. This result could have been avoided and there is so sole person to blame for this. Perhaps I can too be blamed for my role in this.

 

Make me your villain (to quote Shadow and Bone) if it makes things easier to manage. I am tired, my health has gone to shit and I want to just move along. 

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I can attest that the way this was handled was..... lacking from the start. For example most of CS didnt even know about the report when the initial action was taken. This made it hard for us to be united on the decision, when as rightly said it seemed half arsed and came under ridicule. 

 

The issue from then was more the fact that peoples minds had been made up because they had seen the report and in their own groups decided on a virdict. 

 

The issue for me initially was "This process needs to be fair and look at all the evidence" from that me and midnight discussed it in CS channel and were in agreement that the action taken was potentially too early and needed further investigation, as such that is what we did, we discussed with all parties that were relevent to the report and used the evidence that was brought up after the initial report also. Can i see where a "recruitment ruling" came into it? Sure. Did me and other members of the core staff community also find evidence that there was none. Yes. This was why ultimately we decided that taking any action was too far. 

 

The notion that this is a case simply of simply sharing an discord link on EU1. Or anything of that nature is plainly wrong. This was a complex situation that, in my opinion having been dealt with properly, could have been handled in a week with a simple "ok we will keep an eye on it" Type of thing. Had all the evidence been presented in the investigation of the report and before it had been actioned, we wouldnt be here because all the evidence would have come forward we would have come to it from a neutral position (as was eventually done) evidence would have been gathered and a united response put to the reportee, staff and anyone else that was relevent to the enquiry. 

 

From a personal side i would like to note i have been here a while and i remember being a mod, admin and player. The community is fun and i have always been here through it all for the players and my honest drive is to be fair and listen to anyone about anything then coming to a fair but firm conclusion. Not for any other reason than that is how i would want to be treated. I will never apologise for fighting for the rules and investigations to be actioned in a fair manner that is consistent and fair for everyone. For, if i can not be fair with the rules i encourage us to follow, how can i expect the rest of the team to follow those same rules.

1 minute ago, Lindi said:

You never shared any of your reasoning or even how you reached your conclusions. I saw very little transparency and a lot of trying to ignore the problem. I'm glad if you have released a final report by now, although it is way way too late. 

Due to the way the report was initially handled we were fighting a battle where everyones minds were already made. We were not ignoring the problem as you say, we were dealing with the report in the proper way. While i was also working late in a new job that im still getting to grips with that meant that the time i did have available was not instant and a lot of the delay was due to that. 

 

3 minutes ago, Lindi said:

Did you imagine this was every only privy to Core Staff only?

It should have been. Since it was a Admin report that is how they are meant to be handled and that is why they are in a restricted area of the forums. 
 

 

4 minutes ago, Lindi said:

I do not have a victim complex, I am following what I believe is true and morally right. I believe one of the corner stones of Ahoy World was for the longest of times that the rules apply to all. I guess if believing that is undermining the application of Ahoyworlds principles then I am guilty.

the rules apply to all FAIRLY. 

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12 minutes ago, Art3misZA said:

I feel that my report, based upon personal accounts, observations and screenshots, was indeed an accurate representation and I will stand by this.

I think the filing of the report was a perfectly reasonable thing to do and I would say you did the right thing. I doubt most people are mad about the report being filed but instead bothered by the way the report was ultimately handled and discussed.

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@GhostDragonI am sorry to say, but people were making their minds up way before the admin report. It started the instant our admins were advertising another Arma 3 community using Discord rich presence mod. I believe and hope core staff noticed it and I'm also sure concerns were raised quite early on, even though a report was not filed until much later. So yes if you start from the point where the report was filed, then people surely had made their minds up, it had been going on for quite some time by then. It seems Core staff just missed it, didn't communicate internally nor with the rest of the staff.

 

Seeing as it's all about "process and you shouldn't even have known about this since this is how we handle reports" I think that Core should have reacted immediately at the start and with out delay. I would have appreciated it immensely if the opinion of my self and other staff would have been taken into account at some point. There could have been more transparency and communication on so many fronts.

I dislike belittling Norris for getting his feelings hurt, nor do I appreciate telling off "pillars of community". We were following the situation unfold for a long time, I would also like to think I was a pillar of the community, at least I tried my best for the longest of times. I am worried if this is the tone that the one person that is both AWE manager and Public Manager takes in public, it is not a good first step in rebuilding a community.

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The problem boils down to this, at least as i see it. What feels true and morally right is not enough to ellicit instant action. The process is, as ive gathered is sit down, discuss with all the parties involved, core stits down, reaches a conclusion, carries out the verdict. If this process is switched up by mistake, or because of feelings or really strong hunch, then whats the point of a due process? Catch an admin on the wrong day, hurt some feelings and get banned? Is that how this should work? Rules are rules for a reason, applies to everyone, playing the judge and jury by ear all the time and just winging it is not a good future. 

 

Core staff, from all this event reconstruction, was handcuffed, cornered, had no other option but take their time to truly, deeply investigate instead of just keep an eye on it. Need to know basis is there for a reason. A mod shall not judge another mod, both should be equally scrutinized and held to the same standards, have earned the same respect of the community, both of their words carries the same weight, hence shall not be included in the process. To put simply, some decisions are above certain paygrades, that i can understand. Just like player reports, community members are not involved, it would be nice to have our opinions heard aswell, but how would that affect the length of the process, going around asking for opinions.

Pillars uphold the values, all the time. Not at times when its conveniently easy.

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3 minutes ago, MidnightRunner said:

The use of discord rich presence does not constitute recruitment/advertising (Especially since Ahoyworld has now incorporated it)

Playing with another community does not constitute recruitment/advertising 

 

Oh geez how convenient Ahoy now does. Admins should perhaps consider their actions a little more carefully than the average joe, they are pillars of the community after all.

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2 minutes ago, Lindi said:

Oh geez how convenient Ahoy now does. Admins should perhaps consider their actions a little more carefully than the average joe, they are pillars of the community after all.

I understand that you see the discord rich presence differently, but the way you're writing your messages gives me the idea you're taking the message rather personally and are getting agitated. As mentioned we're trying to keep the discussion civil and calm and emotions tend to get in the way of that. Let's try to remain objective so that we can get to a solution. We all have the best interest in mind and I value your opinion greatly.

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@Lindi, ppl hiding their status on discord, going offline on steam to "hide" just to avoid fingers being pointed at them and "be a little more careful than the average joe"... see how much more suspicious that is? there is no right decision, just clear evidence or lack of. if you mix what feels morally right into this, then its just dictatorship. even the worst has the right to say their piece, which should be faced with evidence, and if the evidence is strong enough against it then an action can be carried out.

facts over feelings.

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14 minutes ago, Lindi said:

It started the instant our admins were advertising another Arma 3 community using Discord rich presence mod.

This was discussed within corestaff and we determined that we did not and will not repremand anyone within the community for the use of this mod due to the fact that we use it and the fact that the information is accessable from other sources also. This was always the case and would have been clear had someone asked us at any point.

 

17 minutes ago, Lindi said:

Seeing as it's all about "process and you shouldn't even have known about this since this is how we handle reports" I think that Core should have reacted immediately at the start and with out delay.

Initial action was taken within 3 hours of the report being made, The first i knew about the initial report was a message notifying me of the demotion in the corestaff chanel.
Unfortunately i was working late, doing critical maintance at work and therefore couldnt look at it immediately.
 

 

29 minutes ago, Lindi said:

I would have appreciated it immensely if the opinion of my self and other staff would have been taken into account at some point.

We knew the opinions of staff and had detailed notes from many people. we reviewed the information that we had from staff and decided that it was sufficient. Had the process have been completed properly then im sure we would have had a civilised convorsation about the topics at hand.
 

31 minutes ago, Lindi said:

There could have been more transparency and communication on so many fronts.

Honestly at the time it felt like we were being beaten from all sides, i knew anything i said would be spread around like wildfire and warped into something that it wasnt. I opted to not disclose anything until action was decided for that reason.

 

 

32 minutes ago, Lindi said:

I dislike belittling Norris for getting his feelings hurt, nor do I appreciate telling off "pillars of community". We were following the situation unfold for a long time, I would also like to think I was a pillar of the community, at least I tried my best for the longest of times. I am worried if this is the tone that the one person that is both AWE manager and Public Manager takes in public, it is not a good first step in rebuilding a community.

I will not pretend and say the action was appropriate when it was clearly not. There was no investigation and that was where my initial concerns lied. Had the evidence been clear cut as people are making it out to be im sure my stance would have been different.

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