Gambit

AW MVP 2021: @MidnightRunner AW Most Friendly Admin/Moderator/Spartan 2021: @possiblyEOD AW Most Helpful Admin/Moderator/Spartan 2021: @Whigital thousands of lines of coke..i mean code for i&a AW Most Active Staff Member 2021: @chicken_no6 the guardian of eu1 AW Strictest Staff Member 2021: @MidnightRunner AiMCoEfFiCiEnT hurr durr AW Best Team Player 2021: @RiverWolf AW Most Helpful Member *Non Staff* 2021: AW Most Friendly Member 2021: @Art3misZA (vote wasnt influenced by bribes, gifts or blackmail, i promise) AW Tacti-cool member 2021 : @Rickard the trend setter for Guerillas AW Underrated Member 2021: @chicken_no6 all the stuff you do on eu1 goes mostly unnoticed bud, time to say thank you AW Most Incoherent Member 2021: AW DAAASSS BOOOOT 2021 - The drunkest member of 2021: AW Best/Worst Pilot 2021: best: @Whigital worst: Murph AW Best Voice 2021: Murph, just because the built in natural voicechanger to randomly switch to discount batman most of the year AW Funniest Person on Team Speak 2021: AW Worst Joke 2021 : @LH5 Hi back shall never die....although @Rickard got really close second by nominating me as most friendly member, good one bud AW Best Moment 2021 (can be in-game, on Teamspeak or Forum): waaaaay too many to just pick one AW Best Forum Post 2021 (please put URL in): AW Dankest Meme Post In Discord 2021: ------ AW Best Driver 2021: AW Worst Driver 2021: @Xwatt wasnt around too often, but for the brief time, made sure we never forget AW Best Fail 2021: AW Best Ban of 2021: all of em AW TeamSpeak Channel 2021: hard choice, but setup room - awe ...runner up, lido deck for out of context ark while 6 ppl plays 7 different games AW Best Screenshot 2021: AW Best/Worst Call-out 2021: @JJ Cakes mid sentence "whoup" and silence AW Candidate for the Hague 2021:  @Sho_Iwaizumi its a given at this point until the trial goes through AW Role Model 2021: Senor @JJ Cakes AW Best Shot/Worst 2021: best at being worst intentionally @MidnightRunner



Thanks for the company. Lockdowns, struggles and all the problems, yet yall still here. A lot of us were alone the whole year, but never lonely.

AW MVP 2021: @MidnightRunner AW Most Friendly Admin/Moderator/Spartan 2021: @possiblyEOD AW Most Helpful Admin/Moderator/Spartan 2021: @Whigital thousands of lines of coke..i mean code for i&a AW Most Active Staff Member 2021: @chicken_no6 the guardian of eu1 AW Strictest Staff Member 2021: @MidnightRunner AiMCoEfFiCiEnT hurr durr AW Best Team Player 2021: @RiverWolf AW Most Helpful Member *Non Staff* 2021: AW Most Friendly Member 2021: @Art3misZA (vote wasnt influenced by bribes, gifts or blackmail, i promise) AW Tacti-cool member 2021 : @Rickard the trend setter for Guerillas AW Underrated Member 2021: @chicken_no6 all the stuff you do on eu1 goes mostly unnoticed bud, time to say thank you AW Most Incoherent Member 2021: AW DAAASSS BOOOOT 2021 - The drunkest member of 2021: AW Best/Worst Pilot 2021: best: @Whigital worst: Murph AW Best Voice 2021: Murph, just because the built in natural voicechanger to randomly switch to discount batman most of the year AW Funniest Person on Team Speak 2021: AW Worst Joke 2021 : @LH5 Hi back shall never die....although @Rickard got really close second by nominating me as most friendly member, good one bud AW Best Moment 2021 (can be in-game, on Teamspeak or Forum): waaaaay too many to just pick one AW Best Forum Post 2021 (please put URL in): AW Dankest Meme Post In Discord 2021: ------ AW Best Driver 2021: AW Worst Driver 2021: @Xwatt wasnt around too often, but for the brief time, made sure we never forget AW Best Fail 2021: AW Best Ban of 2021: all of em AW TeamSpeak Channel 2021: hard choice, but setup room - awe ...runner up, lido deck for out of context ark while 6 ppl plays 7 different games AW Best Screenshot 2021: AW Best/Worst Call-out 2021: @JJ Cakes mid sentence "whoup" and silence AW Candidate for the Hague 2021:  @Sho_Iwaizumi its a given at this point until the trial goes through AW Role Model 2021: Senor @JJ Cakes AW Best Shot/Worst 2021: best at being worst intentionally @MidnightRunner



Thanks for the company. Lockdowns, struggles and all the problems, yet yall still here. A lot of us were alone the whole year, but never lonely.

AW MVP 2021: @MidnightRunner AW Most Friendly Admin/Moderator/Spartan 2021: @possiblyEOD AW Most Helpful Admin/Moderator/Spartan 2021: @Whigital thousands of lines of coke..i mean code for i&a AW Most Active Staff Member 2021: @chicken_no6 the guardian of eu1 AW Strictest Staff Member 2021: @MidnightRunner AiMCoEfFiCiEnT hurr durr AW Best Team Player 2021: @RiverWolf AW Most Helpful Member *Non Staff* 2021: AW Most Friendly Member 2021: @Art3misZA (vote wasnt influenced by bribes, gifts or blackmail, i promise) AW Tacti-cool member 2021 : @Rickard the trend setter for Guerillas AW Underrated Member 2021: @chicken_no6 all the stuff you do on eu1 goes mostly unnoticed bud, time to say thank you AW Most Incoherent Member 2021: AW DAAASSS BOOOOT 2021 - The drunkest member of 2021: AW Best/Worst Pilot 2021: best: @Whigital worst: Murph AW Best Voice 2021: Murph, just because the built in natural voicechanger to randomly switch to discount batman most of the year AW Funniest Person on Team Speak 2021: AW Worst Joke 2021 : @LH5 Hi back shall never die....although @Rickard got really close second by nominating me as most friendly member, good one bud AW Best Moment 2021 (can be in-game, on Teamspeak or Forum): waaaaay too many to just pick one AW Best Forum Post 2021 (please put URL in): AW Dankest Meme Post In Discord 2021: ------ AW Best Driver 2021: AW Worst Driver 2021: @Xwatt wasnt around too often, but for the brief time, made sure we never forget AW Best Fail 2021: AW Best Ban of 2021: all of em AW TeamSpeak Channel 2021: hard choice, but setup room - awe ...runner up, lido deck for out of context ark while 6 ppl plays 7 different games AW Best Screenshot 2021: AW Best/Worst Call-out 2021: @JJ Cakes mid sentence "whoup" and silence AW Candidate for the Hague 2021:  @Sho_Iwaizumi its a given at this point until the trial goes through AW Role Model 2021: Senor @JJ Cakes AW Best Shot/Worst 2021: best at being worst intentionally @MidnightRunner



Thanks for the company. Lockdowns, struggles and all the problems, yet yall still here. A lot of us were alone the whole year, but never lonely.

More AA subobjs, increased respawn time on transport birds, very limited and rare cas assets, all made it in because eu1 is supposedly infantry focused. Then why discourage movement in infantry with extreme weapon sway if you move more than 10 meters (the bobbing effect is still there, that remains, just the recovery will be shorter) 
Make it extremely hard to enjoy infantry, the sneaking around getting close type, crawl 3 meters out of stamina, get extreme sway for insanely long time, encourage only one working strategy of camping with a shit ton of ammo, and frustration will be the cause of turnover or trolling
 
How should we know if we only play the what if game, instead of testing it. Not that weapon sway coefficient has only an on and off setting, it can be a fraction between 0 and 1. 

More AA subobjs, increased respawn time on transport birds, very limited and rare cas assets, all made it in because eu1 is supposedly infantry focused. Then why discourage movement in infantry with extreme weapon sway if you move more than 10 meters (the bobbing effect is still there, that remains, just the recovery will be shorter) 
Make it extremely hard to enjoy infantry, the sneaking around getting close type, crawl 3 meters out of stamina, get extreme sway for insanely long time, encourage only one working strategy of camping with a shit ton of ammo, and frustration will be the cause of turnover or trolling
 
How should we know if we only play the what if game, instead of testing it. Not that weapon sway coefficient has only an on and off setting, it can be a fraction between 0 and 1. 

More AA subobjs, increased respawn time on transport birds, very limited and rare cas assets, all made it in because eu1 is supposedly infantry focused. Then why discourage movement in infantry with extreme weapon sway if you move more than 10 meters (the bobbing effect is still there, that remains, just the recovery will be shorter) 
Make it extremely hard to enjoy infantry, the sneaking around getting close type, crawl 3 meters out of stamina, get extreme sway for insanely long time, encourage only one working strategy of camping with a shit ton of ammo, and frustration will be the cause of turnover or trolling
 
How should we know if we only play the what if game, instead of testing it. Not that weapon sway coefficient has only an on and off setting, it can be a fraction between 0 and 1. 

i can understand both sides, but imo, the problem is that two tactics are present on eu1, namely 1.) park outside the AO, bring a hunter with plenty of ammo, and just lob bullets / rockets until the AO is cleared. 2.) get in, move, dash from cover to cover, clearing houses, get caught on a crossing, sprint to cover, struggle with weapon sway for 2-5 minutes and pray to whatever gods you pray to save you from getting dinked
the problem lies in the weapon sway coefficient, that makes 1.) more viable... reducing weapon sway coefficient will still penalize heavy loadouts (sway coefficient doesnt eliminate the sway, just reduces the time its hindering effect after a short sprint, which if you go with 2.) is necessary, for example across a street, or to nearest cover), coefficient works in tandem with stamina, if you burn stamina faster the sway will be exponentially higher, and occure more frequently (since you run out of stamina almost immediately with the heaviest loadout)
in my opinion, if 2.) is at least equally profiatble and workable, then the sniper squads with hunters who are afraid their score will suffer will be incentivised to get closer, get involved... my 2 cents... plus, if it doesnt work and can not be made to work, no harm no foul, it can be changed in the next update, its not like several hundreds of code has to be changed to achieve this effect, lets say after a month of fiddling with it in trial runs (acre switch on eu3 and gamenights anyone? giving it a chance to see if it works or not? ring a bell?)

More AA subobjs, increased respawn time on transport birds, very limited and rare cas assets, all made it in because eu1 is supposedly infantry focused. Then why discourage movement in infantry with extreme weapon sway if you move more than 10 meters (the bobbing effect is still there, that remains, just the recovery will be shorter) 
Make it extremely hard to enjoy infantry, the sneaking around getting close type, crawl 3 meters out of stamina, get extreme sway for insanely long time, encourage only one working strategy of camping with a shit ton of ammo, and frustration will be the cause of turnover or trolling
 
How should we know if we only play the what if game, instead of testing it. Not that weapon sway coefficient has only an on and off setting, it can be a fraction between 0 and 1. 

i can understand both sides, but imo, the problem is that two tactics are present on eu1, namely 1.) park outside the AO, bring a hunter with plenty of ammo, and just lob bullets / rockets until the AO is cleared. 2.) get in, move, dash from cover to cover, clearing houses, get caught on a crossing, sprint to cover, struggle with weapon sway for 2-5 minutes and pray to whatever gods you pray to save you from getting dinked
the problem lies in the weapon sway coefficient, that makes 1.) more viable... reducing weapon sway coefficient will still penalize heavy loadouts (sway coefficient doesnt eliminate the sway, just reduces the time its hindering effect after a short sprint, which if you go with 2.) is necessary, for example across a street, or to nearest cover), coefficient works in tandem with stamina, if you burn stamina faster the sway will be exponentially higher, and occure more frequently (since you run out of stamina almost immediately with the heaviest loadout)
in my opinion, if 2.) is at least equally profiatble and workable, then the sniper squads with hunters who are afraid their score will suffer will be incentivised to get closer, get involved... my 2 cents... plus, if it doesnt work and can not be made to work, no harm no foul, it can be changed in the next update, its not like several hundreds of code has to be changed to achieve this effect, lets say after a month of fiddling with it in trial runs (acre switch on eu3 and gamenights anyone? giving it a chance to see if it works or not? ring a bell?)

ACE NVG (Dslyecxi's video on it a few years ago, he made the first iteration and donated it to the ACE team) is greatly influenced on what goggles you have and what are the weather conditions.
There is a wide range in between the best and worst case scenarios, but generally speaking, more overcast and fog, nvg less useful. I dont know the exact nvg settings on server, but the film grain effect can be toned down, which helps with the worst cases, although it wont help with the lighting conditions. The BettIR mod might help, but my experience with it tells me it wont solve the bitching, since it relies on dynamic lighting settings on client side, plus the contrast/brightness settings, which will not be influenced by it. 
To quickly run through, in magnitude of influence on ace nvg visibility, weather conditions (overcast, rain, fog) matters the most, then ambient lighting, then weapon mounted ir illum. Dynamic lighting settings control the latter two (number of ir illum visible at once, aka those little lasers have been raised by the ace nvg system compared to vanilla so dynamic lighting wont really screw with that), so if the weather is on the better end of the spectrum, then you will experience less of a problem with flickering lights and suddenly losing illum or flares not lighting up because of the amoung of lights already displayed.
 
IMO, the first things that players who experience problems with nvgs could do is, check their settings, play around with brightness and contrast in game and on the monitor aswell. To help that, on the server side, settings of film grain could be toned down or almost eliminated, and making sure the weather conditions most likely end up on the better case scenario side at nighttimes (less than 30% overcast, no fog, little to no rain).
If and when i find some time (most likely over the weekend if i wont forget) ill make a spreadsheet about the nvgs, or if any of you are bored enough and want to help, start it, before i get to it, happy days

ACE NVG (Dslyecxi's video on it a few years ago, he made the first iteration and donated it to the ACE team) is greatly influenced on what goggles you have and what are the weather conditions.
There is a wide range in between the best and worst case scenarios, but generally speaking, more overcast and fog, nvg less useful. I dont know the exact nvg settings on server, but the film grain effect can be toned down, which helps with the worst cases, although it wont help with the lighting conditions. The BettIR mod might help, but my experience with it tells me it wont solve the bitching, since it relies on dynamic lighting settings on client side, plus the contrast/brightness settings, which will not be influenced by it. 
To quickly run through, in magnitude of influence on ace nvg visibility, weather conditions (overcast, rain, fog) matters the most, then ambient lighting, then weapon mounted ir illum. Dynamic lighting settings control the latter two (number of ir illum visible at once, aka those little lasers have been raised by the ace nvg system compared to vanilla so dynamic lighting wont really screw with that), so if the weather is on the better end of the spectrum, then you will experience less of a problem with flickering lights and suddenly losing illum or flares not lighting up because of the amoung of lights already displayed.
 
IMO, the first things that players who experience problems with nvgs could do is, check their settings, play around with brightness and contrast in game and on the monitor aswell. To help that, on the server side, settings of film grain could be toned down or almost eliminated, and making sure the weather conditions most likely end up on the better case scenario side at nighttimes (less than 30% overcast, no fog, little to no rain).
If and when i find some time (most likely over the weekend if i wont forget) ill make a spreadsheet about the nvgs, or if any of you are bored enough and want to help, start it, before i get to it, happy days

hate to break it to ya bud, but LAMBS is not the problem there. if anything LAMBS make the ai more toned down in terms of the info they have and how they act upon it (they will suppress the last known position - for example you pop out from around a corner and back, the ai makes a decision to suppress you so they spray that area - instead of the vanilla behaviour of tracking you through a wall and hit you on the other side)
granted, the ai can communicate to other ai groups about the info they have, plus adding the factor of tfar and maybe ai hearing it might be possible to track your location fairly accurately (as a human would be able to)
 
i suspect its the map, that causing the problem, vanilla AI doesnt count a lot of objects as feasible cover or concealment (hell, on some mod maps they flat out ignore buildings and they can see through it), LAMBS does add a lot more extra objects into that, for some reason not even LAMBS can pick up things on the map (which would be ignored by vanilla AI anyway, so taking LAMBS out would make the problem even worse)
 
all in all, im defending LAMBS, and want to clarify that your problems origin is definitely not the AI behaviour tree, its more likely that the map and how it was made is the cause...
just for info, LAMBS add more objects into the AI list to use as cover, and enhance some fuzzy decision trees to make it more clear and readable for the onlooker. doesnt affect the AIs ability to see or ignore buildings in terms of tracking you (thats map issue) and this is why i think if you take out LAMBS more maps will be problematic and unplayable... bad combo of weapons, armor values, map, rather than lambs causing the ai to be snipers (thats not what LAMBS do)
 
my 2 cents, as a programmer i hate when ppl blame something that they dont have any knowledge about what it does.
i suggest you load up the editor, try it our for yourself, with and without lambs (mod has some nifty debug features where it states what the ai is about to do and what state are they in you can observe that in zeus)
AW dev team cant do shit about maps being badly configured and edited

well, with totally discarding due process, theoretically, yes. Toss out the rules to prevent unforseen future events and how ppl would react, predict the future, thats a feat no CS has ever posessed... hindsight is 20/20...
 
I think its better to have incidents thoroughly investigated rather than try to satisfy the feels. The aformentioned leak of a document and the conflicting personal recounts of events from multiple ppl (i heard, for some reason lot of you find me with "oh i had enough of this drama" and i frequently make the mistake of asking hows your day) leads me to the conclusion, the witchhunt as @MidnightRunner called it, turned into the game of "lost in translation", pass the bits and pieces of personal ideas/eperiences, colored with bias goes around, thats fcking gossip, and i dont want to be in a community which would ban me based on somebody having a massive chip on their shoulder and finding me in a bad mood then start gossipping around that im a bad influence (although its true, that doesnt count as evidence) and shall be removed from existence.
 
Due process, everyone follows, everyone is up to the same scrutiny.... everyone fights, nobody quits.
 
Its sad in this day and age, where shadowplay exists these kind of decisions must be made on personal recounts of events, forcing CS to take sides in a word against word battle is just plain stupid.
 
As i've been saying, the cause of the drama is totally fine, not affected by it, and yet we are here, about a month later still bitching about what could have been done. Dont get me wrong, reflecting on mistakes (not gathering enough evidence before we cry wolf for example) is a good thing, blaming one person whos hands were tied because of the way it was handled initially and blaming @MidnightRunner for calling a decision and following due process on a broken and partial case is unfair on so many levels. Everyone makes mistakes, we are all humans, mopping up after some other's mistakes and getting the blame for it is an absolute slog, i am not surprised the mood has been below the frog's ass all around.
 
I stand by due process, without it we all fall into chaos.

You all know me, im not chiming in on everything on the forums, and when i do i usually make some ppl mad, thats almost a given, but you cant make scrambled eggs without breaking some (l)eggs, so here are my 2 cents, as a simple member who cares.
 
I understand both sides of the argument, and without pulling in personal experience from interactions with the multitude of ppl i met here and my personal conclusions about said ppl's characters, i agree with the CS decision, although it is definitely a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" case. It should be clear, accusations are not enough, no matter how strongly we agree with said accusations and how strongly we feel its right. It would be nice, but sadly, we cant. I would have been banned for multiple lifetimes on the grounds of pissing ppl off if that would be the case

On the united front of CS, well @Xwatt, me and you go way back on disagreeing and agreeing on millions of things, and with your phrasing i cant agree. The drama lama is dancing amongst CS and you chose your words poorly in this instance painting a dark tone future. Cheer up bud, everything will be allright.
 
Personally i think the ppl will prevail, friendships will survive, and to be fair... i dont give a f*ck about who plays where and with who. On the other hand, if somebody has a role, and accepts a certain package of responsibilities in another community i find it hardly beliveable to uphold two rule sets on two communities, have the same amount of focus and enthusiasm on both places at the same time, and with every job, if you cant do it you are either honest about it and say it, step down.
 
I, personally, think, no matter what, a CS decision should be respected, im pretty sure they put their time in it (just looking at how much time has passed since the report and the conclusion, seeing the core staff channel filled, mods being kidnapped from other channels with the sentence of "hey, do you have a minute to talk"), and we all have lives, jobs, that demands our attention, and just to remind everyone, CS was chosen specifically because of their skillset to juggle their responsibilities, so blaming CS for "the lack of swift action" is uncalled for. Please be respectful as you called everyone to do so, and as former CS you should know what its like to have responsibilities on multiple fronts, how much sacrifice is goint into maintaining a community. Plus if its not an open and shut case, discussions has to happen, the more ppl involved the longer the discussions will take, etc etc. Whats more important, stopping the drama quickly or being thorough, cant have both, back to damned if you do damned if you dont.
 
Blaming gamenight player turnout on the commmunity being torn apart by petty drama and bruised egos is another thing. Before the whole drama, gamenights had different turnouts, i have my reasons why i dont attend every gamenight, but to list a few, theme is not interesting for me (lasers and arma doesnt mix for me), some mission expectations are a no for me (ie pvp focused, forced to something i dont want to), i dont enjoy the zeus' playstyle running the gamenight, im fed up with arma in general for a week, installed game i have in my library since 2013 and booted it up for the first time and got sucked into it, and the list goes on.
Ppl look for big scale operatons, more milsim, etc, and yet the gamenights were frequently disrespected, "just for the memes", doing stupid things like mass tk at the end, etc. Thats why the turnouts are low, trust was ruined by differing expectations, not because we cant have more milsim, or cant have big scale missions, and need to find another community to satisfy that need. To be fair, i dont want to sit and do hoops in virtual boot camp, once was enough. I strongly advise ppl who crave for that to get off yer ass and find the neares recruiting office and sign up for real. If i wanted ppl to call me sir every damn minute, i would have never left. Thats my take on tryhard milsim armchair generals. Wanna do it like for real? Do it for real then.
 
On the transparency note, it goes both ways. If you dont tell CS when there might be potential conflict of interest, there will be fallout when (not if, its a when because ppl will talk) they find out. If you dont have anything to hide,.... thats up for the reader's interpretation. Ive been open about playing other games, with other ppl, or other servers if ppl ask (i know, sacrilege) and i dont hold, never intend to, any responsible position in this community other than being the guy who says stuff nobody dares to. I can understand not spreading the drama far and wide, contain it to staff who has to make a decision, nobody else, just like the ban appeals. (i might be partially better off than most of ya, im not in discord so i missed the daily *pling, pling* drama updates and side dms of "have you heard..", i have enough drama in my life hence why im not on discord)
 
Blaming CS for NOT discussing the whole drama WHILE the investigation and conversations WAS STILL IN PROGRESS is a bad route to go down. I would much rather have a clear, consice decision, with clear path on how CS ended up on a decision then have constant update and backtracking on previous updates about the drama while in progress just to shove it out the doors and inform everyone hows it going. Im pretty sure thats what made ppl fed up with the issue and just tired to the point when they dont even want to log on, cuz they dont want another "hey have you heard that x told..."
For example, if i get banned i would much rather have an explanation from yall why, instead of me looking at a forum link to appeal a ban and explain why i think its unjust (i dont think i need to bring up specific cases, right?). I can stand behind CS decision of innocent until proven guilty and the proof of burden lies with the accusator instead of the accused, proper examination of evidence instead of rushed decision because thats what the community wants. I have seen thousands of situations in my career where you leave the decision up to the masses it will always produce a huge bias. Its not about whats right, its about what can be proven.

On the other hand i find it funny that outreach doing the reverse outreach instead of trying to implement what other playstyle you want here. I mean, cmon, the whole point of EU1 is if you want to play a certain style, you will find some random ppl wanting the same tagging along, how much harder is it to ask whos in, lets do it... or at least try. Much harder to build something from nothing, than get in on something already built. But thats just my opinion.
 
On the front of "divide within CS" and "not a monarchy", well, thats what democracy is, there will always be divide amongst ppl, even on the smallest and most meaningless matters. If you call for a united front of CS, thats a dictatorship in disguise. Whos voice should be the one to follow? The problem lies with ppl not handling said divide, just "you dont agree with me? well see ya then...poof" instead of trying to reach a concensus and understand every move is a precedent setting case, rules applied, community will look back years later for guidance.
 
Its said to see ppl go, oldtimers aswel. Not everything will ever go however you want it, and the sooner yall accept it, the sooner yall get over the drama lama. Welcome to real life. I know this will hurt some feelings, and you all know what my stance on that is.
 
Life will find a way, ppl will come and play arma, AW stood for a long time and sure it will still be here when arma5 releases, heck not uncommon to see eu1 filled to the brim on some days and have 15-20 ppl on prarie fire at the same time. So i think the turnout on different gamenights is more of a reflection on the style and theme appealing to a more foused subset of interest rather than struggling to get new players to engage. I know i personally skipped gamenights just because it wasnt for my taste. Having those smaller number gamenights can show the interest of the community, and they are good to satisfy the needs of the few for their sacrifice on attending the more populated and laid back gamenights.
 
That being said, the community lives because of the players, not because who is at the reins and what decisions they make if they make it by the rules and apply it equally fair instead of going for what feels right. And thats why i personally think whoever is on any responsible role and holds another at a different community will not have the time to mingle and get to know the community, keep their fingers on the pulse of the community.
 
And yes, i think the incentivicasion of recruitment (attaining zeus or admin priviledges with said medals on a webprofile insted of meritocracy at least thats what i heard from multiple credible sources, but i dont know much about that other community, thankfully have no personal experience with them, not here to advertise their greatness on how they handle things, to be frank i dont care at all) is bad enough, but its down to individual cases. I can understand the time needed to evaluate said cases, and happy to see it thoroughly investigated instead of applying a blanket ban/no ban statement rushed out the doors just to please the masses with pitchforks and torches. Lack of discussion and information, i see no reason to involve for example me in the decision, its the rules, agree or disagree, im here to have fun not get involved in drama, so i have no issue about not knowing what was happening and why until a decision was made. And if you ever ask me to sit down and read the gods knows however many pages of accumulate evidence and screenshots and all that crap, i'll beat you to death with a god damn rubber ducky.
 
Most importantly, if we cant be honest with ourselves and admit when we made a mistake, how do we ask others to be honest with us. Losing years of friendships doesnt worth it. In my opinion, the ppl causing the issue moved on, unhindered by the drama, so why are we still spinning on this, just to make our days miserable? I say
 
#DramaLamaGoAway
 
Im still around on TS, and ill be as long as fun ppl are around, made some friends disagreed with them on a lot of things and agreed on a few more, and im not about to sacrifice the possibility of meeting new ones just because i have to sort out the not so friendly ones or have some disagreement sometimes. Even tho i disagree with you @Xwatt on a few points and how your call to open discussion's tone is shaping some ppls opinion already without prior knowledge on what actually happened or with partial information, i still think you are an honourable c*nt, we can agree to disagree sometimes.
 
Cheers

@Noah_Hero my sources and the information about attaining certain perks with those medals came from outside of AW, just to make it clear... i didnt take it as face value, i trust those who gave me the information, but im fully aware the information could be and very well might be either outdated, or second hand, hence i stressed the point of due process

I didn't really want to comment here, as I didn't, and still don't, know exactly what happened. In fact, today was the first time I'd heard at all about all this, and in truth this thread, whilst being a good thing, has made me a little sad. It is a good thing to air grievances, but unfortunately bickering from either side is never productive, and it's sad to see it from some well known and well respected members of this group.
I may be an Ahoyworld newbie, I've barely been here more than 6 months, and some of you have been moderating forums etc for longer than I've been alive, but I feel I have got to know many of you quite well since I've been here, and I've made some good friends, unfortunately some of whom I will almost definitely see less now this has happened. 
 
At it's base level, this is a community based on arma (and squad (-: ) primarily. None of us (at least I hope) are here for the politics, and if you are, you're in the wrong place in my eyes. We're here to play arma, with, in my (possibly a little biased) opinion some of the best public servers around, some fabulous scheduled ops, and the best and friendliest online community I've been a part of. I hope I still see many of you on EU1&2, or playing along with AWE and ops, even if you take a less involved role or stop interacting with the social side of the community altogether, but overall I hope no one truly falls out. There's a good number of friends here for a reason, but if you do leave, I hope you find another group that's as friendly and accommodating as all of you have been to me, and hopefully we'll bump into each other again in the future.
 
As I said, I don't know enough about this to make a decision, so I'm keeping a neutral view. If anyone wants to rant, complain, or just chat about this or anything else, feel free to PM me.

@Noah_Hero my sources and the information about attaining certain perks with those medals came from outside of AW, just to make it clear... i didnt take it as face value, i trust those who gave me the information, but im fully aware the information could be and very well might be either outdated, or second hand, hence i stressed the point of due process

@Noah_Hero my sources and the information about attaining certain perks with those medals came from outside of AW, just to make it clear... i didnt take it as face value, i trust those who gave me the information, but im fully aware the information could be and very well might be either outdated, or second hand, hence i stressed the point of due process

agree, but thats not on CS
 
did you ever discuss with regulars or plain members what was happening in a player ban? because its the same, just one or two levels beyont plain member.... on the same resonsibility and power level information should not be passed around, only a higher power can pass judgement...
 
 

You all know me, im not chiming in on everything on the forums, and when i do i usually make some ppl mad, thats almost a given, but you cant make scrambled eggs without breaking some (l)eggs, so here are my 2 cents, as a simple member who cares.
 
I understand both sides of the argument, and without pulling in personal experience from interactions with the multitude of ppl i met here and my personal conclusions about said ppl's characters, i agree with the CS decision, although it is definitely a "damned if you do, damned if you dont" case. It should be clear, accusations are not enough, no matter how strongly we agree with said accusations and how strongly we feel its right. It would be nice, but sadly, we cant. I would have been banned for multiple lifetimes on the grounds of pissing ppl off if that would be the case

On the united front of CS, well @Xwatt, me and you go way back on disagreeing and agreeing on millions of things, and with your phrasing i cant agree. The drama lama is dancing amongst CS and you chose your words poorly in this instance painting a dark tone future. Cheer up bud, everything will be allright.
 
Personally i think the ppl will prevail, friendships will survive, and to be fair... i dont give a f*ck about who plays where and with who. On the other hand, if somebody has a role, and accepts a certain package of responsibilities in another community i find it hardly beliveable to uphold two rule sets on two communities, have the same amount of focus and enthusiasm on both places at the same time, and with every job, if you cant do it you are either honest about it and say it, step down.
 
I, personally, think, no matter what, a CS decision should be respected, im pretty sure they put their time in it (just looking at how much time has passed since the report and the conclusion, seeing the core staff channel filled, mods being kidnapped from other channels with the sentence of "hey, do you have a minute to talk"), and we all have lives, jobs, that demands our attention, and just to remind everyone, CS was chosen specifically because of their skillset to juggle their responsibilities, so blaming CS for "the lack of swift action" is uncalled for. Please be respectful as you called everyone to do so, and as former CS you should know what its like to have responsibilities on multiple fronts, how much sacrifice is goint into maintaining a community. Plus if its not an open and shut case, discussions has to happen, the more ppl involved the longer the discussions will take, etc etc. Whats more important, stopping the drama quickly or being thorough, cant have both, back to damned if you do damned if you dont.
 
Blaming gamenight player turnout on the commmunity being torn apart by petty drama and bruised egos is another thing. Before the whole drama, gamenights had different turnouts, i have my reasons why i dont attend every gamenight, but to list a few, theme is not interesting for me (lasers and arma doesnt mix for me), some mission expectations are a no for me (ie pvp focused, forced to something i dont want to), i dont enjoy the zeus' playstyle running the gamenight, im fed up with arma in general for a week, installed game i have in my library since 2013 and booted it up for the first time and got sucked into it, and the list goes on.
Ppl look for big scale operatons, more milsim, etc, and yet the gamenights were frequently disrespected, "just for the memes", doing stupid things like mass tk at the end, etc. Thats why the turnouts are low, trust was ruined by differing expectations, not because we cant have more milsim, or cant have big scale missions, and need to find another community to satisfy that need. To be fair, i dont want to sit and do hoops in virtual boot camp, once was enough. I strongly advise ppl who crave for that to get off yer ass and find the neares recruiting office and sign up for real. If i wanted ppl to call me sir every damn minute, i would have never left. Thats my take on tryhard milsim armchair generals. Wanna do it like for real? Do it for real then.
 
On the transparency note, it goes both ways. If you dont tell CS when there might be potential conflict of interest, there will be fallout when (not if, its a when because ppl will talk) they find out. If you dont have anything to hide,.... thats up for the reader's interpretation. Ive been open about playing other games, with other ppl, or other servers if ppl ask (i know, sacrilege) and i dont hold, never intend to, any responsible position in this community other than being the guy who says stuff nobody dares to. I can understand not spreading the drama far and wide, contain it to staff who has to make a decision, nobody else, just like the ban appeals. (i might be partially better off than most of ya, im not in discord so i missed the daily *pling, pling* drama updates and side dms of "have you heard..", i have enough drama in my life hence why im not on discord)
 
Blaming CS for NOT discussing the whole drama WHILE the investigation and conversations WAS STILL IN PROGRESS is a bad route to go down. I would much rather have a clear, consice decision, with clear path on how CS ended up on a decision then have constant update and backtracking on previous updates about the drama while in progress just to shove it out the doors and inform everyone hows it going. Im pretty sure thats what made ppl fed up with the issue and just tired to the point when they dont even want to log on, cuz they dont want another "hey have you heard that x told..."
For example, if i get banned i would much rather have an explanation from yall why, instead of me looking at a forum link to appeal a ban and explain why i think its unjust (i dont think i need to bring up specific cases, right?). I can stand behind CS decision of innocent until proven guilty and the proof of burden lies with the accusator instead of the accused, proper examination of evidence instead of rushed decision because thats what the community wants. I have seen thousands of situations in my career where you leave the decision up to the masses it will always produce a huge bias. Its not about whats right, its about what can be proven.

On the other hand i find it funny that outreach doing the reverse outreach instead of trying to implement what other playstyle you want here. I mean, cmon, the whole point of EU1 is if you want to play a certain style, you will find some random ppl wanting the same tagging along, how much harder is it to ask whos in, lets do it... or at least try. Much harder to build something from nothing, than get in on something already built. But thats just my opinion.
 
On the front of "divide within CS" and "not a monarchy", well, thats what democracy is, there will always be divide amongst ppl, even on the smallest and most meaningless matters. If you call for a united front of CS, thats a dictatorship in disguise. Whos voice should be the one to follow? The problem lies with ppl not handling said divide, just "you dont agree with me? well see ya then...poof" instead of trying to reach a concensus and understand every move is a precedent setting case, rules applied, community will look back years later for guidance.
 
Its said to see ppl go, oldtimers aswel. Not everything will ever go however you want it, and the sooner yall accept it, the sooner yall get over the drama lama. Welcome to real life. I know this will hurt some feelings, and you all know what my stance on that is.
 
Life will find a way, ppl will come and play arma, AW stood for a long time and sure it will still be here when arma5 releases, heck not uncommon to see eu1 filled to the brim on some days and have 15-20 ppl on prarie fire at the same time. So i think the turnout on different gamenights is more of a reflection on the style and theme appealing to a more foused subset of interest rather than struggling to get new players to engage. I know i personally skipped gamenights just because it wasnt for my taste. Having those smaller number gamenights can show the interest of the community, and they are good to satisfy the needs of the few for their sacrifice on attending the more populated and laid back gamenights.
 
That being said, the community lives because of the players, not because who is at the reins and what decisions they make if they make it by the rules and apply it equally fair instead of going for what feels right. And thats why i personally think whoever is on any responsible role and holds another at a different community will not have the time to mingle and get to know the community, keep their fingers on the pulse of the community.
 
And yes, i think the incentivicasion of recruitment (attaining zeus or admin priviledges with said medals on a webprofile insted of meritocracy at least thats what i heard from multiple credible sources, but i dont know much about that other community, thankfully have no personal experience with them, not here to advertise their greatness on how they handle things, to be frank i dont care at all) is bad enough, but its down to individual cases. I can understand the time needed to evaluate said cases, and happy to see it thoroughly investigated instead of applying a blanket ban/no ban statement rushed out the doors just to please the masses with pitchforks and torches. Lack of discussion and information, i see no reason to involve for example me in the decision, its the rules, agree or disagree, im here to have fun not get involved in drama, so i have no issue about not knowing what was happening and why until a decision was made. And if you ever ask me to sit down and read the gods knows however many pages of accumulate evidence and screenshots and all that crap, i'll beat you to death with a god damn rubber ducky.
 
Most importantly, if we cant be honest with ourselves and admit when we made a mistake, how do we ask others to be honest with us. Losing years of friendships doesnt worth it. In my opinion, the ppl causing the issue moved on, unhindered by the drama, so why are we still spinning on this, just to make our days miserable? I say
 
#DramaLamaGoAway
 
Im still around on TS, and ill be as long as fun ppl are around, made some friends disagreed with them on a lot of things and agreed on a few more, and im not about to sacrifice the possibility of meeting new ones just because i have to sort out the not so friendly ones or have some disagreement sometimes. Even tho i disagree with you @Xwatt on a few points and how your call to open discussion's tone is shaping some ppls opinion already without prior knowledge on what actually happened or with partial information, i still think you are an honourable c*nt, we can agree to disagree sometimes.
 
Cheers

well, with totally discarding due process, theoretically, yes. Toss out the rules to prevent unforseen future events and how ppl would react, predict the future, thats a feat no CS has ever posessed... hindsight is 20/20...
 
I think its better to have incidents thoroughly investigated rather than try to satisfy the feels. The aformentioned leak of a document and the conflicting personal recounts of events from multiple ppl (i heard, for some reason lot of you find me with "oh i had enough of this drama" and i frequently make the mistake of asking hows your day) leads me to the conclusion, the witchhunt as @MidnightRunner called it, turned into the game of "lost in translation", pass the bits and pieces of personal ideas/eperiences, colored with bias goes around, thats fcking gossip, and i dont want to be in a community which would ban me based on somebody having a massive chip on their shoulder and finding me in a bad mood then start gossipping around that im a bad influence (although its true, that doesnt count as evidence) and shall be removed from existence.
 
Due process, everyone follows, everyone is up to the same scrutiny.... everyone fights, nobody quits.
 
Its sad in this day and age, where shadowplay exists these kind of decisions must be made on personal recounts of events, forcing CS to take sides in a word against word battle is just plain stupid.
 
As i've been saying, the cause of the drama is totally fine, not affected by it, and yet we are here, about a month later still bitching about what could have been done. Dont get me wrong, reflecting on mistakes (not gathering enough evidence before we cry wolf for example) is a good thing, blaming one person whos hands were tied because of the way it was handled initially and blaming @MidnightRunner for calling a decision and following due process on a broken and partial case is unfair on so many levels. Everyone makes mistakes, we are all humans, mopping up after some other's mistakes and getting the blame for it is an absolute slog, i am not surprised the mood has been below the frog's ass all around.
 
I stand by due process, without it we all fall into chaos.

The problem boils down to this, at least as i see it. What feels true and morally right is not enough to ellicit instant action. The process is, as ive gathered is sit down, discuss with all the parties involved, core stits down, reaches a conclusion, carries out the verdict. If this process is switched up by mistake, or because of feelings or really strong hunch, then whats the point of a due process? Catch an admin on the wrong day, hurt some feelings and get banned? Is that how this should work? Rules are rules for a reason, applies to everyone, playing the judge and jury by ear all the time and just winging it is not a good future. 
 
Core staff, from all this event reconstruction, was handcuffed, cornered, had no other option but take their time to truly, deeply investigate instead of just keep an eye on it. Need to know basis is there for a reason. A mod shall not judge another mod, both should be equally scrutinized and held to the same standards, have earned the same respect of the community, both of their words carries the same weight, hence shall not be included in the process. To put simply, some decisions are above certain paygrades, that i can understand. Just like player reports, community members are not involved, it would be nice to have our opinions heard aswell, but how would that affect the length of the process, going around asking for opinions.
Pillars uphold the values, all the time. Not at times when its conveniently easy.

The problem boils down to this, at least as i see it. What feels true and morally right is not enough to ellicit instant action. The process is, as ive gathered is sit down, discuss with all the parties involved, core stits down, reaches a conclusion, carries out the verdict. If this process is switched up by mistake, or because of feelings or really strong hunch, then whats the point of a due process? Catch an admin on the wrong day, hurt some feelings and get banned? Is that how this should work? Rules are rules for a reason, applies to everyone, playing the judge and jury by ear all the time and just winging it is not a good future. 
 
Core staff, from all this event reconstruction, was handcuffed, cornered, had no other option but take their time to truly, deeply investigate instead of just keep an eye on it. Need to know basis is there for a reason. A mod shall not judge another mod, both should be equally scrutinized and held to the same standards, have earned the same respect of the community, both of their words carries the same weight, hence shall not be included in the process. To put simply, some decisions are above certain paygrades, that i can understand. Just like player reports, community members are not involved, it would be nice to have our opinions heard aswell, but how would that affect the length of the process, going around asking for opinions.
Pillars uphold the values, all the time. Not at times when its conveniently easy.

I can attest that the way this was handled was..... lacking from the start. For example most of CS didnt even know about the report when the initial action was taken. This made it hard for us to be united on the decision, when as rightly said it seemed half arsed and came under ridicule. 
 
The issue from then was more the fact that peoples minds had been made up because they had seen the report and in their own groups decided on a virdict. 
 
The issue for me initially was "This process needs to be fair and look at all the evidence" from that me and midnight discussed it in CS channel and were in agreement that the action taken was potentially too early and needed further investigation, as such that is what we did, we discussed with all parties that were relevent to the report and used the evidence that was brought up after the initial report also. Can i see where a "recruitment ruling" came into it? Sure. Did me and other members of the core staff community also find evidence that there was none. Yes. This was why ultimately we decided that taking any action was too far. 
 
The notion that this is a case simply of simply sharing an discord link on EU1. Or anything of that nature is plainly wrong. This was a complex situation that, in my opinion having been dealt with properly, could have been handled in a week with a simple "ok we will keep an eye on it" Type of thing. Had all the evidence been presented in the investigation of the report and before it had been actioned, we wouldnt be here because all the evidence would have come forward we would have come to it from a neutral position (as was eventually done) evidence would have been gathered and a united response put to the reportee, staff and anyone else that was relevent to the enquiry. 
 
From a personal side i would like to note i have been here a while and i remember being a mod, admin and player. The community is fun and i have always been here through it all for the players and my honest drive is to be fair and listen to anyone about anything then coming to a fair but firm conclusion. Not for any other reason than that is how i would want to be treated. I will never apologise for fighting for the rules and investigations to be actioned in a fair manner that is consistent and fair for everyone. For, if i can not be fair with the rules i encourage us to follow, how can i expect the rest of the team to follow those same rules.
Due to the way the report was initially handled we were fighting a battle where everyones minds were already made. We were not ignoring the problem as you say, we were dealing with the report in the proper way. While i was also working late in a new job that im still getting to grips with that meant that the time i did have available was not instant and a lot of the delay was due to that. 
 
It should have been. Since it was a Admin report that is how they are meant to be handled and that is why they are in a restricted area of the forums. 
 
 
the rules apply to all FAIRLY. 

well, with totally discarding due process, theoretically, yes. Toss out the rules to prevent unforseen future events and how ppl would react, predict the future, thats a feat no CS has ever posessed... hindsight is 20/20...
 
I think its better to have incidents thoroughly investigated rather than try to satisfy the feels. The aformentioned leak of a document and the conflicting personal recounts of events from multiple ppl (i heard, for some reason lot of you find me with "oh i had enough of this drama" and i frequently make the mistake of asking hows your day) leads me to the conclusion, the witchhunt as @MidnightRunner called it, turned into the game of "lost in translation", pass the bits and pieces of personal ideas/eperiences, colored with bias goes around, thats fcking gossip, and i dont want to be in a community which would ban me based on somebody having a massive chip on their shoulder and finding me in a bad mood then start gossipping around that im a bad influence (although its true, that doesnt count as evidence) and shall be removed from existence.
 
Due process, everyone follows, everyone is up to the same scrutiny.... everyone fights, nobody quits.
 
Its sad in this day and age, where shadowplay exists these kind of decisions must be made on personal recounts of events, forcing CS to take sides in a word against word battle is just plain stupid.
 
As i've been saying, the cause of the drama is totally fine, not affected by it, and yet we are here, about a month later still bitching about what could have been done. Dont get me wrong, reflecting on mistakes (not gathering enough evidence before we cry wolf for example) is a good thing, blaming one person whos hands were tied because of the way it was handled initially and blaming @MidnightRunner for calling a decision and following due process on a broken and partial case is unfair on so many levels. Everyone makes mistakes, we are all humans, mopping up after some other's mistakes and getting the blame for it is an absolute slog, i am not surprised the mood has been below the frog's ass all around.
 
I stand by due process, without it we all fall into chaos.