Mod-set Discussion (Poll)

[Johnson]

I've recently been wondering how important certain mods are too people since I personally want a change.

 

If you know me you know that I'm not a fan of mods like SMA and DAR Humvees and while I much prefer RHS over most mods, I'm not biased, I just feel that RHS provides a better quality of items.

 

That being said, while I'm not a huge fan of BAF I still think it's a great introduction to the server, offering a wide range of new and different equipment (see, I'm not biased).

 

 

 

Since the poll only allows me to create three questions, I can only ask about three mods, so I've picked out the three mods I feel most controversial that I personally do not like.

 

Also, keep in mind that even if mods such as these are removed, they could be replaced by others which may provide better quality equipment or gear, but instead in smaller numbers, such as NIArms and the Burnes M-ATV mod. Personally, I think of it as quantity over quality.

 

Feel free to discuss the topic in the comments, would love to hear some opinions and feedback as well as any questions regarding the mods. The full list of mods that I personally think the server is better without are as follows:

 

- DAR HMMWVs

- Gorgona

- Multi-National Pack [MNP]

- Kunduz

- LAV-25

- Middle Eastern Factions

- PLA

- Specialist Military Arms [SMA]

- Stryker Pack

 

 

 

EDIT: I was mistaken on the M-ATV mod, this is the one I was talking about (http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=30789)

[Minipily]

Certainly a lot of mods that could be removed and otherwise replaced. 

 

I find DAR Humvee's to be a novelty. RHS is adding a TOW Humvee into it's modpack, rendering DAR even more useless than it already is.

 

Gorgona should've been removed a while ago, why it still remains baffles me.

 

MNP is again, a novelty at best. It's a fairly large mod that at best, adds a couple uniforms that I see people occasionally use. These uniforms are just retextures of the Vanilla and there are better alternatives that we already have or could replace with.

 

Kunduz is a broken map that lacks updates, an abandoned project. It is not built for Stiletto and never will be, Stiletto is purely too big of a mission for a map that was designed to be a Foot Patrol map for training.

 

LAV-25's can be penetrated by trees and lamp posts, though it adds something new to the modpack that we do not have anywhere else, it sadly does not work as intended. Again, much like DAR, it will soon have a replacement in RHS when the team eventually get around to bringing it out.

 

Middle Eastern Factions is a decent mod, however it is fairly large and is not necessarily required. RHS itself adds plenty of different factions to fight against as well as the Vanilla game having a few we could probably fight, such as the FIA or Syndikat

 

PLA are a retextured CSAT using weapons that are just a varied bunch from Vanilla and RHS. I would strongly suggest getting rid of this mod and replacing the PLA faction with CSAT.

 

SMA is a 1gb mod that adds in mostly duplicates to what we already have. The weapons are nicely detailed but poorly delivered, with ridiculous recoil mechanics and terrible outdated sound effects. The mod itself was last updated in 2016, a testament to it's cons. Essentially, this is a 1gb mod that gives us the SCAR rifles, rifles that I believe will be added to RHS in the future. Out of the mods that have been discussed about removing, SMA remains the only mod that actually shares any form of detail and thus may be a tough decision. However, using facts over opinions, it's 1gb large for iterations of rifles we can get in better detail and updated form in smaller mod packs.

 

Stryker pack is much like the LAV-25's, even though they have added something fresh that we do not have in any other current mod, they sadly do not work as intended and have too many bugs to warrant them being used in the first place. Ryko did attempt to fix them, and I praise him for his work in that sector, but you can't tell a dead dog to bark.

 

I share my pointers in the most unbiased form I can. I understand that people may feel that I am just taking Johnson's side, but frankly I can see where his points come from and AhoyWorld Enhanced does deserve a modpack facelift she so desperately requires. We've been given the golden child of missions that is Stiletto in a free server such as AWE, we may as well look after it and move it forward. Instead, focusing on bundling both Quality and Quantity rather than purely going for the latter in hopes that more equipment to chose from will make us enjoy ourselves more rather than focusing on the gameplay.

 

I look forward to hearing people's pointers, stuff like this is of course a controversial topic at best, but controversy is sometimes the best way to get people to talk from the heart.

[Stanhope]

- PLA - 32,0 kB

- Middle Eastern Factions - 132 kB

- Gorgona - 99,6 MB

- DAR HMMWVs - 85,8 MB

- LAV-25 - 100 MB

- Stryker Pack - 174 MB

- Multi-National Pack [MNP] - 369 MB

- Kunduz - 1.06 GB

- Specialist Military Arms [SMA] - 1,12 GB

 

-RHS SAF - 524 MB
-RHS GREF - 1,26 GB

-RHS USAF - 4.68GB

-RHS AFRF - 4,91 GB

 

Total size of the repo: 23.28 GB

 

<sarcasm> Yes let us crack down on the horrible horrible problem called PLA and middle eastern factions, it is outrageous that such huge useless mods are allowed to be in the repo. Their combined size is 164 KB, which is 0.0007% of the total repo size.  Simply outrageous that they haven't been removed yet.</sarcasm>

 

To get serious: If one were to objectively compare RHS weapons/vehicles/vests/... to their vanilla counterparts one would have to conclude that they are not balanced with each other.  Now I often hear people saying that vanilla gear is overpowered.  Can I remind those people that we're playing arma and not RHS?  Vanilla should, in my opinion, always be the thing we compare mods to.  

 

So instead of comparing mods like SMA to RHS rifles let's compare them to vanilla rifles.  If one did that objectively one would have to conclude that they are rather balanced.  Sure there's room for improvement, but there always is.  

 

If this is about bringing the size of the repo down then let's ditch RHS.  That'd shrink the repo from 23.28 GB to 11.906 GB.  As said above we have doubles in other mods for most of the RHS stuff.  We can also start using the vanilla based factions for enemies (FIA, syndicat).  And with the remaining gear packs more mods like PLA could be made in next to no time.  

 

If this is just about getting rid of certain mods people don't like I must ask why.  23.28 GB isn't all that big, If i recall correctly it used to be 30-ish GB.  

If this is about making room for other mods I'm arguing ditching RHS again.

 

And to wrap this up just my thoughts about some of the specific mods mentioned here:

Spoiler

-Dar hummv: altho the textures aren't top notch, i don't personally mind.  They're still decent looking while offering the gunner some additional protection.  Also minigun hummv.

-Gorgona/Kunduz -They're maps.  I don't really care what happens to them.  For me altis + malden + stratis is enough.

 

-LAV-25 - "The LAV-25 (Light Armored Vehicle) is an eight-wheeled amphibious armored reconnaissance vehicle" ~wikipedia.  We use it as an IFV, not as a reconnaissance vehicle.  It's not designed to take hits, it's designed to not be seen and to run when it is seen.  Stop using it as an IFV.

 

- Middle Eastern Factions - They're enemies and for 132 kB there isn't a lot you can do wrong.  

 

-PLA - We should fight them more often.  Good job making them Ryko.  At least these guys don't drop dead when you look at them.  Also people are actually scared from their vehicles.  (While i don't get why people run away from marids or ifrit GMGs.  Shoot the turret ~15 times with your 5.56 NATO and it's out of action, making those vehicles harmless. (And yes even with the underpowered RHS rounds you can do that)

 

-SMA - awesome mod.  We should use their rifles instead of those from RHS.  They're at least balanced compared to vanilla.  And they look way better than the vanilla and RHS rifles.

-Stryker Pack - I guess we don't need this?  We could just use the marid and gorgon?  

 

-Multi-National Pack - I don't really care, I don't use their gear anyways.  Some enemies do I think but at 369 MB it might be worth considering changing those uniforms over to vanilla ones.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Noah_Hero]

I dont care about mod-sizes.

 

I just hate the look of the DAR HMMWVs because I hate playing games with bad textures.

I dislike SMA because I like gear-restrictions => If lesser gear is available, the better is the server in my opinion.

I hate MNP because most of it looks stupid and all but 8 of the uniforms are OP. The remaining ones only offer disadvantages. Also the same as with SMA: If lesser stuff is available, the more I enjoy the gameplay.

[Amentes]

I do feel pretty safe in saying that a large if not humongous majority of the players consider RHS the de-facto standard to follow on server, for better or worse.

 

From that viewpoint, SMA is poorly balanced and duplicates existing assets. I'm with Noah on the "less is more" approach, both in weapon, clothing and PPE selection.

 

I also don't care about repo size, and I don't think everything in the repo needs to be available on Stiletto. If something could be useful for a custom scenario, then it pays for itself, IMHO.

[Stanhope]

10 minutes ago, Amentes said:

I do feel pretty safe in saying that a large if not humongous majority of the players consider RHS the de-facto standard to follow on server, for better or worse.

Didn't people use to consider CUP as de-facto standard?  Anything's possible if you want it

 

I certainly don't disagree with the less is more, I'd have no issue with vanilla + ace + TFAR but I don't think it's going to be for the near future.  

[Noah_Hero]

55 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

I'd have no issue with vanilla + ace + TFAR but I don't think it's going to be for the near future.

We can still have dreams

[Ryko]

A couple of notes -

 

Generally - our survey results suggested the majority of players aren't really concerned about the size of the repo, so I'm not sure what the overall aim of this exercise is. You talk about change as a goal, but what I'm seeing is just removing content so that it's not available.

 

1) Gorgona and Kunduz will eventually be removed, Kunduz had to stay until at least 059 because I'd accidentally used a few structures from that mod pack to populate some buildings on Lythium

2) PLA & Middle East Factions are tiny mods, just config files that leverage existing assets, without them you are essentially fighting nothing but Russians

3) Killoch's MNP is in use by PLA & Middle East Factions, as well as a few players, I think it could be possible to use other uniforms not in MNP for them. There will of course be the standard contingent of players who will be upset that they have to redo all their loadouts because the uniforms will no longer exist in the arsenal.  I'm not married to MNP, I agree with Noah that some of the uniforms are OP.

4) SMA, I'm not super happy with the imbalance on some of the weapons, but again some people feel very strongly for them (as your own poll shows) - for example magazine weight it not consistent

5) For DAR, yes, the textures are pure Arma 2, but I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for RHS to add additional content. It will probably happen eventually, but in the meantime, those vehicles add very useful functionality based on the way players tend to play the mission.  Players tend to drive vehicles to the AO and then advance on foot. Theoretically I could remove DAR, Strykers and LAV25 and the majority of players wouldn't notice a difference.  However since we are trying to emulate some form of realism I'm loathe to do that as those vehicles are hugely integrated into the US branches of the military, which we are often playing.

5a) For the Stryker and LAV, we had got those working quite successfully but then an issue cropped up which continues to pop a config error. It's on the to do list.

 

If we were having a conversation about the mod pack, I'd entertain discussion of integrating CUP in its entirety, but to go down that route would probably the third rail of AWE politics. There is a ton of excellent content in that mod, but all it takes is one crappy texture and people are willing to cross the entire package off the list.

[Johnson]

The purpose of the exercise, since I didn't make it clear, was simply to see how much people like certain mods. Thus, if these mods were disliked, they could be replaced by better ones. I'm personally against these mods as I couldn't agree with @Amentes and @Noah_Hero more, less can certainly be more and it's what I would always strive for on AWE.

 

 

I'll try and keep it short for responding to your comment, @Stanhope:

 

• The point of the post was not to lower the repo, the point is above.
• RHS is big for a reason. It offers loads of content and the equipment is amazingly high quality, higher than SMA. Take a closer look. SMA looks like freshly made AEGs while RHS looks like battle-scarred tools that have been actually used in combat. What you think looks "nicer" is an opinion, but what mod has better quality of models and textures is not and opinion, only fact.
• After fighting against re-textured vanilla gear in combat while using RHS for hours on end, I can safely say RHS is not under-powered. If we did a poll I would be very surprised if most people disagreed.

 

As for your direct statements regarding the mods themselves:

• If people only desire DAR Humvees for the variation and gunner protection I would highly advise checking out Burnes M-ATV mod. It's 60MB and it offers a large variety of turrets to be placed on a M-ATV based on the vanilla Hunter.
• I find it ironic that you're happy with three maps but not happy with just RHS as the primary content mod.
• Yes, while the LAV-25 is not designed to directly take RPG rounds, I do believe it should survive the impact from a bush. I agree with you that the vehicle should be used more appropriately, but if the LAV damage model is fixed then no discussion is needed.
• I agree with you about the factions, they should stay, so long as they no longer require MNP so that MNP can be removed.
• If the Stryker is also fixed it could stay.
• I agree with you about MNP and I wouldn't mind seeing vanilla clothing in MNP's place.

 

@Ryko I've probably kinda reponded to you in my reposnse to Stan, but yeah I basically agree with you:

• SMA is inconsistent and just wondering, which version do we use? Personally, I would love to see SMA replaced by weapons from NIArms. Those who wish for SMA to stay should defiantly check NIArms out @Stanhope.
• I agree we shouldn't hold our breath for new RHS Humvees, but I defiantly think we should consider Burnes' M-ATVs instead of DAR, they both offer similar levels of variation, but Burnes' M-ATVs are way better done and use vanilla assets I think.

 

I will reiterate, I'm not biased, I just know RHS is an extremely solid mod that offers a lot of high quality content. I think we should always have some ground mods to build and work off (RHS, ACE, TFAR).

 

I could talk about this for hours but I highly implore TeamSpeak discussion. If anyone sees me on we should defiantly have a talk. It's nice to hear this level of discussion again; to hear everyone's thoughts and opinions.

 

Side note, any possibility of re-trialing TFAR 1.0? Think it's been updated, would be cool to have.

[Minipily]

I'm glad to hear that such long standing community members such as @Amentes and @Noah_Hero share similar interests for the betterment of AhoyWorld Enhanced.

 

I could not agree more that less is more, of course all of this is not about shrinking the mod pack as technically, getting rid of mods and getting new ones is making it larger. All of this was just to see what people's thoughts are as well as discuss how getting rid of some mods to either replace or keep standard in RHS can keep things simple yet detailed.

 

If CUP is going to be discussed then I'd like to listen to the pointers, as people are aware I am an RHS man, but I am aware of the pro's that CUP delivers. After all, sometimes quantity can be a quality all its own.

 

Thank you @J0hnson for keeping the topic unbiased and factually sound, professional behaviour regarded AWE is what she deserves.

[Stanhope]

10 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

RHS is big for a reason. It offers loads of content and the equipment is amazingly high quality, higher than SMA. Take a closer look. SMA looks like freshly made AEGs while RHS looks like battle-scarred tools that have been actually used in combat. What you think looks "nicer" is an opinion, but what mod has better quality of models and textures is not and opinion, only fact.

[...]
SMA is inconsistent and just wondering, which version do we use? Personally, I would love to see SMA replaced by weapons from NIArms. Those who wish for SMA to stay should defiantly check NIArms out @Stanhope.

The only weapon I really use from SMA is the FN SCAR because: https://www.mil.be/nl/material-type/bewapening.  I do use the scopes and suppressors in almost all my loadouts.  NIArms itself doesn't come with a SCAR if i'm not mistaken.  There's at least 1 arma 2 port that requires NIArms but it's an arma 2 port, not a brand new shiny arma 3 mod.

You know, fun fact: I've been walking past scars (and FNCs) at less than 5 meters 2 times a day 5 days a week for about 8 months now.  (Obviously soldiers are carrying them )  The guns in the mod look pretty darn similar to the ones carried by those soldiers I walk past.
Loads of mods, and even vanilla arma, are inconsistent.  Look at the .300 WM for the M2010 in RHS.  I can fit 89 5rnd clips in my vest.  
I've also take a look at the .p3d files (the model) from both RHS & SMA for the HK416 (because it's the first one I found in both).  They're similar in size for all variants.  SMAs p3ds are on average about 200kb less big.  I haven't opened them up to take a more detailed look because I don't have blender installed anymore.

And whether you prefer your gun with a new look or a battle hardened look isn't a universal fact I think, more opinion.

 

33 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

After fighting against re-textured vanilla gear in combat while using RHS for hours on end, I can safely say RHS is not under-powered. If we did a poll I would be very surprised if most people disagreed.

Strange, people always complain that PLA is overpowered.  Or that the kamysh eats AT-4 after AT-4 without taking damage.  Or that the marid is unbeatable.  Or that the t-100 is overpowered.  And why aren't the vanilla spars whitelisted?  Because they "upset the balance".

 

1 hour ago, J0hnson said:

If people only desire DAR Humvees for the variation and gunner protection I would highly advise checking out Burnes M-ATV mod. It's 60MB and it offers a large variety of turrets to be placed on a M-ATV based on the vanilla Hunter.

Are you talking about this M-ATV: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1091150415?  Because it is "an intitial version of the Oshkosh M-ATV for download. Still VERY MUCH WIP" Uploaded on 27 juli 2017 and never updated. As far as I can tell it also only comes in the .50 variant.  On top of that it looks out of the box brand new and not battle hardened.

 

1 hour ago, J0hnson said:

I find it ironic that you're happy with three maps but not happy with just RHS as the primary content mod.

For me x is enough =/= I'm happy with.  Sure i'm happy with the other maps, but in my opinion the vanilla ones are enough.  

 

1 hour ago, J0hnson said:

yes, while the LAV-25 is not designed to directly take RPG rounds, I do believe it should survive the impact from a bush. I agree with you that the vehicle should be used more appropriately, but if the LAV damage model is fixed then no discussion is needed.

<sarcasm>Let's scrap the prowler.</sarcasm>  That's just the nature of arma.  Sure the mod maker(s) could have done something to prevent this from happening but if BI can't even get it right ...

 

I have no problem agreeing that certain mods, like DAR hummvs, stryker pack, ... should be replaced by better mods if possible.  I just don't see any better mods out there and trust me I've been looking for a long time.
And yes, removing duplicate things from the mod-pack is never a bad thing.  As long as you don't lose any significant other features/contents while doing this.  That's why I'd prefer the vanilla spar and maaws to be whitelisted.  I may also disagree about which of the duplicates is the one to keep.

[Ryko]

People go on and on about the textures in the mod packs. Yes, there are subtle differences in the textures, and it's mainly noticeable if you are comparing Arma 2 (pre OA / British Forces) gear and A3/RHS gear. From about 5 feet away. As soon as you get further than 5 feet away, another LoD (Level of Detail) kicks in and all those wonderful textures are history.

 

Not to mention the fact that the majority of combat in this game takes place at distances of 200+ meters.  At which point you're basically shooting at forms which are about 10-20 pixels in size.

 

For me, it's about functionality and providing assets which (more or less) accurately model the battlespace we're trying to present. I agree there is a baseline of quality that is pleasing to the eye (the CUP US military uniforms are legitimately garbage) but frankly all that stuff disappears when you're in the heat of the moment.

[Valkyyr]

Would like to chip in and just mention that the attraction of Enhanced was the gameplay. Came for the teamwork, dynamic and difficulty. Not bothered what weapon I use to shoot an enemy, the shade of green or pattern my uniform has or even if the enemy face is made up of 3 pixels. Will always back mods/development that provide a tense & fun experience that I got when I first played

[Johnson]

3 hours ago, Stanhope said:

As far as I can tell it also only comes in the .50 variant.  On top of that it looks out of the box brand new and not battle hardened.

This is the mod I was thinking of - http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=30789 Also I didn't mean every item should look battle-hardened , I just meant that it's what I like about RHS weapons.

 

 

 

As for all your other comments, I read them but we should discuss this more on TeamSpeak when we get a chance.

[GhostDragon]

After fighting against re-textured vanilla gear in combat while using RHS for hours on end, I can safely say RHS is not under-powered. If we did a poll I would be very surprised if most people disagreed.

Re this point, actually yes it is really under powered Vs vanilla and also pla. We have done extensive testing especially when the plate mod came out, 7.62 RHS rounds can not even shoot through the wooden sheds found on Altis compared to all other mods where even the 5.56 can.

[Johnson]

@GhostDragon I literally killed an enemy through a wooden wall on Temberlan using a RHS M4 yesterday, we were clearing a kill-house on an airbase @Adshield.

 

 

I've also shot @Minipily through a wooden door using the RHS M9... for... scientific purposes of course.

[GhostDragon]

9 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

@GhostDragon I literally killed an enemy through a wooden wall on Temberlan using a RHS M4 yesterday, we were clearing a kill-house on an airbase @Adshield.

 

 

I've also shot @Minipily through a wooden door using the RHS M9... for... scientific purposes of course.

kill houses use plywood, thats not the same as the sheds they have different hit values and it depends on the armour. 

 

They lose a lot of power on the entry vs other arma ammo types thus actually killing someone is very unlikely. (this has been a fact for a long time and i dont see it changing anytime soon)

[Johnson]

3 minutes ago, GhostDragon said:

They lose a lot of power on the entry vs other arma ammo types

Don't all the SMA 5.56 rifles use the RHS mags in the modpack?

[GhostDragon]

Don't all the SMA 5.56 rifles use the RHS mags in the modpack?

This is only because of a compat we use (for mag Sharing) otherwise they have their own ammo types

[Johnson]

@GhostDragon @Stanhope

 

So should both RHS 5.56 weapons and SMA 5.56 weapons perform the exact same on the Enhanced server then? I thought everyone was saying SMA was way better than RHS since RHS was so under-powered (and therefore it should be removed)? How can that be so if they both fire the same exact rounds?

 

Sure, some weapons may have higher accuracy than others and such, but ballistic penetration should be near identical... no?

[Amentes]

IIRC there are some 7.62x51 weapons out of SMA that don't use RHS mags, even with the compatibility add-on.

 

Personally I also count things like weight, "felt" recoil and accuracy as factors that contribute to something being OP or not.

 

Most BAF stuff is OP primarily by virtue of it weighing as little as 60% of their equivalent RHS counterparts. AT4s and the L129A1 are perfect examples of this phenomenon.

[Johnson]

I personally really want to see NI Arms MG3 GPMGs mod added. Having a new auto-rifle other than the M249 would be amazing. The mod is only 70MB plus the 90MB core file, so really not that big for an entirely new line of much needed weaponry.

 

Plus, the mod also adds the MG42, which Serbia still use today...

 

God is a Serb

[Minipily]

Still waiting on Serbian Armed Forces being a playable faction.

 

The idea of being able to use both Soviet Kalashnikov weaponry as well as Western AR-15 platforms gives a nice playable faction with more freedom of choice than any other current force. Vehicle wise it'd be pretty interesting as well, with old Humvee's and BTR's. 

[Stanhope]

7 hours ago, J0hnson said:

So should both RHS 5.56 weapons and SMA 5.56 weapons perform the exact same on the Enhanced server then? I thought everyone was saying SMA was way better than RHS since RHS was so under-powered (and therefore it should be removed)? How can that be so if they both fire the same exact rounds?

 

Sure, some weapons may have higher accuracy than others and such, but ballistic penetration should be near identical... no?

I never suggested RHS to be removed because SMA was better   For starters I only suggested ditching RHS if this was about getting the size of the repo down, which it isn't so ...  And the reason I gave was that it's underpowered compared to vanilla.  

Yes the SCAR-L only has RHS rounds available to it in stiletto, but it has a longer barrel than the RHS rifles I typically use, giving it higher muzzle velocity and thus better penetration (for the same round). Now you should be able to compare barrel lengths, however ace does support RHS weapons but not SMA weapons. This because we do have a compatibility patch for RHS but not one for SMA (or this one, haven't looked at either properly yet). According to the range card the scar-Ls barrel is significantly longer.  Which, if nothing else is broke (which might be), should mean it has a higher muzzle velocity.

The SCAR-H has 2 types of RHS ammo available and I avoid those at all cost.  I always use the SMA long range rounds (because I only use the SCAR-H in my marksman loadout).  

[Johnson]

@Stanhope fair enough but:

 

4 hours ago, Stanhope said:

the SCAR-L only has RHS rounds available to it in stiletto, but it has a longer barrel than the RHS rifles I typically use, giving it higher muzzle velocity and thus better penetration

I don't know what RHS weapons you use, but the M4/M4A1 have a longer barrel than the SCAR-L we have in the modpack, not even considering the classic M16A4 20 inch monster.

 

I think the ACE Arsenal provides muzzel velocities now anyway, perhaps we should reference that.