Logi, SLs and a whole lot of other things apparently

[Stanhope]

So a few things I, as a player of AWE, want to say.

I've noticed how in the last 2-3 weeks there has only been a few days where, when I hopped on AWE, there wasn't a logi.  Almost all the time there was a logi and at least one FOB.  About 50% of the time even 2 FOBs.  I even once saw 3 FOBs on malden if i'm not mistaken.  
Now I don't have any issue with logi or FOBs but after 2-3 weeks i've had enough of it.  When the server population is low FOBs are more a pain than a gain in my opinion.  Yes the guys in logi will have an awesome time building them i have no doubt about that.  But here is why I sometimes find them a pain to deal with.

I join the server and see 3 spawn points in the list (2 FOBs + main base).  I pick the FOB that's closest to the only AO.  I spawn in pick a slot, load up the arsenal, grab a kit, ...  And when i've done all that i realise that everybody else is on the other side of the map clearing a hostile town.  I message ASL that i'm at FOB x and would appreciate some transport to the AO.  ASL gets annoyed because the other FOB is within driving distance but now he's got to send one of the 2 vortex's.  Those vortex's where doing other things right then, one was providing cas, the other helping logi. 

Later that same mission a lot of people die at once.  But ASL never said where we should respawn, so people spawn at all 3 spawn points.  Forcing vortex to fly to all 3 and pick people up.  Seriously slowing any action down.

Next day i joined after this i was in luck.  Only 1 FOB and a carrier.  I mean there is an FOB so everyone will be there right?  Wrong everyone was at the carrier and i was at the FOB.  So vortex was tasked to first come get me.  After that we flew out to that FOB again to grab vehicles, because that's apparently all it was a vehicle spawner and a spawn point.  Not an actual FOB.

Now i'm not saying that logi shouldn't be used or FOBs shouldn't be build.  But not every single day please.  I don't have a problem with all the delays FOB cause if it's every once in a while.  But right now if i hear the words logi or FOB after a mission restart I'm out.  Because usually that means 45 minutes of us sitting in base doing nothing before everyone has agreed on where the FOB should be, crates are packed, helis are spawned, ...

 

So could i kindly request SLs to use logi less often and ask everyone else to ask explicit consent from ASL to get in logi?  I've seen many SLs just role with logi just because people got in it even though that SL didn't actually want a logi.

[Johnson]

Again, I see this problem relating more to the ASL's leadership decisions than the use of FOBs.

 

I'm not too sure if the teleporter at the Freedom works, but if so, could you not just always spawn there and await tasking, rather than rolling the dice with FOBs.

 

I would agree that more that a single FOB on maps like Stratis, Malden and Bozcaada is a bit much, but on maps like Altis multiple FOBs is extremely useful and enjoyable.

 

 

 

I don't really get the problems people have with FOBs, I mean, if there's a Logi team established on a restart with ASL's consent and their task is to set up a FOB for Alpha's use while Alpha themselves focus on collecting intel or completing a current objective, what is the problem there. Who could be unhappy there? (Alpha would be doing their job, Logi would be setting up a FOB, Vortex could be assisting Logi with the FOB supplies or Alpha with CAS).

 

That's the only thing I don't understand, what the true problem is.

[Stanhope]

5 hours ago, J0hnson said:

I'm not too sure if the teleporter at the Freedom works

There has never been a teleporter?

 

5 hours ago, J0hnson said:

on maps like Altis multiple FOBs is extremely useful and enjoyable.

It can be yes, but for me personally if there is a FOB every single day that i join it's not.

 

5 hours ago, J0hnson said:

I don't really get the problems people have with FOBs

When the mission just restarts:
if we don't have a logi and don't set up a fob we're out of base and fighting within 15-30 minutes.
With a logi that's planing on setting up a fob it's 45-60 minutes.

(on average)

 

5 hours ago, J0hnson said:

if there's a Logi team established on a restart with ASL's consent

Thing is that, in my eyes, an ASL not telling you to leave the slot is not the same as hime giving you consent to take the slot.  He just doesn't want to be the buzzkill even if he doesn't want a logi.  I have a feeling some people know this and abuse it.

[Walk'N]

To my mind Logi takes too much importance.

It might be fun to set up FOBs (I think i'll enjoy it) but when there are only 3 "fighters" (ASL, A1 or A2) and 4 Logi, it's problematic...

An idea may be to reduce the amount of Logi members (to 1).

BUT when a FOB has to be created, all members of the Forces can help to install the FOB, Logi being the "architect" of it and giving order to "simple man". Like that FOBs are mounted more quickly but is that easily scriptable...

[Minipily]

I don't really see any issues, it seems like a players issue if they have one. 

 

I find that if SL wants a FOB, he can have a FOB and the increased use of FOBs over the few months compared to last is quite enjoyable to see.

 

I can agree that some FOBs are useless, particularly when someone decides to take Logi straight away and assume that a FOB would be useful and place it in an area that is not useful.

 

At the end of the day I find that if someone takes ASL and wants a FOB, nothing stopping them, and I'd welcome them to do it as much as they want. I don't really get annoyed when I can't do a mission because of it, because building a FOB is a mission. Technically, everything you do on AWE is a mission.

[Stanhope]

1 minute ago, Minipily said:

I don't really see any issues, it seems like a players issue if they have one. 

12 hours ago, Stanhope said:

So a few things I, as a player of AWE, want to say.

12 hours ago, Stanhope said:

So could i kindly request ...

Yes, yes it is.  Does that not make it worth mentioning on the forum?

 

[Minipily]

1 minute ago, Stanhope said:

Yes, yes it is.  Does that not make it worth mentioning on the forum?

 

I'm aware, it's always a player issue these days anyway. But at the end of the day an ASL doesn't have to listen if one person doesn't like what he's doing, he's in charge.

[Stanhope]

7 minutes ago, Minipily said:

But at the end of the day an ASL doesn't have to listen if one person doesn't like what he's doing, he's in charge.

True but if everyone just keeps their problems to themselves how are they ever going to get fixed?

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, i'm kindly requesting some things.  Whether or not you do that is up to you.  Same goes for everyone else.

[Minipily]

1 minute ago, Stanhope said:

True but if everyone just keeps there problems to themselves how are they ever going to get fixed?

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything, i'm kindly requesting some things.  Whether or not you do that is up to you.  Same goes for everyone else.

Well I personally think and of course other opinions vary, that a way of fixing it would be to take ASL yourself perhaps. Like @J0hnson, I see it more of an ASL leadership decision issue, which sure some people may not like but they just gotta tough it up and carry on sometimes until it becomes an issue across the larger audience.

 

I think a lot of players that take ASL like the use of Logi and not many things will change their style, I mean personally I'm always up for changing things up, so I may sometimes limit the use of Logi and Vortex and purely use ground forces with a small team to drive reinforcements back and forth in a truck.

[Stanhope]

1 hour ago, Minipily said:

a way of fixing it would be to take ASL yourself perhaps

I would if the slot wasn't taken.  And if the slot isn't taken there can't be a logi anyways.

 

1 hour ago, Minipily said:

ASL leadership decision issue, which sure some people may not like but they just gotta tough it up and carry on sometimes until it becomes an issue across the larger audience.

So you're saying that it first has to give a massive fallout before some people would change how they SL?
I personally hope that people can at least consider some things by a simple kind request on the forum.

[Johnson]

3 hours ago, Stanhope said:

There has never been a teleporter?

My bad, I thought this was a suggested and accepted implementation by @Ryko.

 

 

3 hours ago, Stanhope said:

It can be yes, but for me personally if there is a FOB every single day that i join it's not.

Fair enough, I'll only argue fact here.

 

 

3 hours ago, Stanhope said:

When the mission just restarts:
if we don't have a logi and don't set up a fob we're out of base and fighting within 15-30 minutes.
With a logi that's planing on setting up a fob it's 45-60 minutes.

(on average)

Respectfully, this is not consistent fact. A more recent time that I played on AWE was a perfect example of how this is not true; I think @ShadowAce11 was ASL but I can't clearly recall, whomever it was, we were out of base within 10 minutes.

 

While we were assaulting a town on Malden, he gave Logi full permission to set up their FOB on the other side of the island. Reinserts for Alpha were handled by Vortex and although Alpha suffered heavy casualties, I think everyone enjoyed themselves, I know me and @Adshield certainly did. @Noah_Hero was there as the much needed Corpsman so maybe he can recall who the ASL was, but I think it was Shadow.

 

Later Alpha regrouped with Logi in their FOB, allowing us to heal up and resupply, as well as take a breather.

 

3 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Thing is that, in my eyes, an ASL not telling you to leave the slot is not the same as hime giving you consent to take the slot.  He just doesn't want to be the buzzkill even if he doesn't want a logi.  I have a feeling some people know this and abuse it.

Well again, I think this problem revolves around the leadership of an ASL rather than the use of Logi, although I agree that some ASLs feel obliged to accept Logi teams. I can not relate to this personally as I enjoy the use of Logi, however if I were in a position where I do not wish for a Logi team, I would suggest to Logi that I have little use for them and would much prefer if they re-slot, but it is their own decision. That way, they know what I want and I know what they want.

 

13 hours ago, Stanhope said:

ask everyone else to ask explicit consent from ASL to get in logi

That I can agree with. Logi will see a decrease in use if more people ask permission for sure, but personally, if I and certain other people such as @Minipily are in ASL, the majority of the time we will want a Logi team. (Plus Logi is also fun for re-insets/ground MEDEVACs, allowing Vortex to remain on other duties like CAS)

 

14 hours ago, Stanhope said:

i hear the words logi or FOB after a mission restart I'm out

I think this is a bit of an overreaction and will certainly not help with the lack of players on AWE, if more people begin to think like this. As I stated in my example; Alpha and Logi are not forced to work together all the time, ASL can order them to operate independently, allowing Alpha to focus on their objective.

 

 

 

I do agree with many of your points, but I would request that you don't leave the server as soon as you hear Logi or FOB after a restart, for the same given reasons, it will not help with player population at all. I'm sure we can all find ways of enjoying ourselves regardless.

[Stanhope]

24 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

Respectfully, this is not consistent fact. A more recent time that I played on AWE was a perfect example of how this is not true; I think @ShadowAce11 was ASL but I can't clearly recall, whomever it was, we were out of base within 10 minutes.

 

While we were assaulting a town on Malden, he gave Logi full permission to set up their FOB on the other side of the island. Reinserts for Alpha were handled by Vortex and although Alpha suffered heavy casualties, I think everyone enjoyed themselves, I know me and @Adshield certainly did. @Noah_Hero was there as the much needed Corpsman so maybe he can recall who the ASL was, but I think it was Shadow.

 

Later Alpha regrouped with Logi in their FOB, allowing us to heal up and resupply, as well as take a breather.

Hence the on average.  Yes there are times when it works like a charm.  But on average it doesn't.

 

25 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

Well again, I think this problem revolves around the leadership of an ASL rather than the use of Logi

Did I explicitly state that logi was the problem? From the original post:

14 hours ago, Stanhope said:

So could i kindly request SLs to use logi less often and ask everyone else to ask explicit consent from ASL to get in logi?

 I know it's a problem with SLs.  But it's also people forcing an unconfident SLs hand by taking logi slots without asking permission.

 

27 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

As I stated in my example; Alpha and Logi are not forced to work together all the time, ASL can order them to operate independently, allowing Alpha to focus on their objective.

Well yes you don't have to directly work with logi but that's not an issue for me.

What i would consider an issue is that the amount of AI at missions and spawned by ambient is determined by the amount of people on the server.  Not by the amount of people in alpha.
 

32 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

I do agree with many of your points, but I would request that you don't leave the server as soon as you hear Logi or FOB after a restart, for the same given reasons, it will not help with player population at all. I'm sure we can all find ways of enjoying ourselves regardless.

I enjoy myself more with scripting I&A 3 and other things than with sitting around in base waiting.  And seeing how on average the usage of logi after a restart means that we'll be doing nothing for at least half an hour and not so uncommonly an hour i'll rather go script some stuff.  If these waiting periods become the exception rather than the rule even with a logi i'll have no problem in staying.  
But don't expect from me to stick around trying to find some enjoyment lying around somewhere on AWE when i know i can get my 'dose of enjoyment ' somewhere else in considerably less time.

[Amentes]

42 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

Well again, I think this problem revolves around the leadership of an ASL rather than the use of Logi, although I agree that some ASLs feel obliged to accept Logi teams. I can not relate to this personally as I enjoy the use of Logi, however if I were in a position where I do not wish for a Logi team, I would suggest to Logi that I have little use for them and would much prefer if they re-slot, but it is their own decision. That way, they know what I want and I know what they want.

 

SL should never have to ask people to slot out of Logi, as there shouldn't ever be people in Legi without them first having asked SL. What I've seen too many times is that someone will go into PlatCo, open up whatever he wants, then slot into that. This happens without people having talked to SL.

 

We saw similar things happen in Gauntlet where someone would take UAV Op and then ask SL if that's ok. Again, this is not OK, as it puts it on SL to say "No, get out", rather than "Yes, get in." Frankly; it's a disrespectful way to go about it.

 

I'm of the opinion that PlatCo should never be used to unlock something without a PlatCo also staying in the slot.

 

At any rate, yes, it does revolve around the leadership of the player in charge, but with the above examples it's also clear that the players in general aren't doing the SL any favors.

[Noah_Hero]

Ok, I`m not gonna quote everything but instead just give my opinion:

 

Personally I like LOGI but I guess that was obvious. The only problem I have is the amount of people that LOGI could "take away" from Alpha. I mean even at the MSO LOGI is perfectly filled for most tasks with two people wich means that on AWE you shouldn´t need more than one guy in LOGI since Vortex can assist him perfectly. But apparently sometimes it still happens that LOGI actually takes up like 3 people + Vortex wich is just way too much in my opinion since these two additional people could be way better utilized in Alpha for example. Also I think that when things take extremely long it usually isn´t LOGIs fault. Whoever is ASL should just consider to reslot and let someone else do the job who is better capable of doing so. Because as you said @J0hnson, when @ShadowAce11 was ASL on that Malden-assault everything worked out perfectly fine without any delay because he just started the mission with us and then told LOGI just where he wanted that FOB and letted him do whatever he wanted to because it is just simply not needed to always keep your eyes on what LOGI is doing. I mean even if that FOB then turns out to be sh*t it doesn´t really matters because it isn´t crucial for stiletto at alll...it is just a nice-to-have-feature. And as last point I´ll also have to agree with @Amentes that you should never take a slot without beeing authorized to do so. I mean I can see your point @J0hnson that you could just ask them to reslot and I´m sure that you or Amentes will also do that but will a new/unexperienced ASL really do that as well? I doubt it!

 

So long story short:

What I would wish for is not to use LOGI less often but instead to use LOGI only if you are a experienced ASL and only with a reasonable amount of people (1 + Vortex, or only 1 if you are going for vehicle-reinserts only). Also don´t take slots without permission! And if you do keep taking them:

Spoiler

 

 

Best regards

Noah

[Guest]

OK.... so. Whenever I am on there is usually an average of around 5 people online. That means 4 infantry and generally one vortex. Now, if you only had a small handful of people why would you not create on FOB? IT would slow the pace of the game down to make vortex pick up people in ones and twos whenever they die from the carrier. Instead the first 20 minutes is set up creating an FOB. IT should never take longer than this to setup a basic FOB if you choose a good location. Then, everybody proceeds as normal. Now, what (in my eyes, correct me if wrong) your saying is that you want people to rely less on FOBs and more on vortex? But then that ruins the small groups of people that want to play. Ruins it for the groups of five that want to use vehicles to aid their progress. It's not our fault that when other larger groups come on, it seems like a mess. 

 

Now, instead of sitting arguing, how about we try to figure this out? How about there is a way to temporarily disable or remove a spawnpoint? That way there is no confusion for the newer players, but it would be able to get re-enabled again at a later time? That, other than telling people to outright not do something, is the only good solution I see to this.

 

Just my $0.02 <3

[Johnson]

59 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

Hence the on average.  Yes there are times when it works like a charm.  But on average it doesn't.

This "average" you refer too just comes down to the ASL's decision, I don't really understand the argument there, but fair enough. My point is that the "average" is easily manipulated through the ASL's decision to just let Logi work independently until needed and has nothing to do with Logi themselves.

 

59 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

I know it's a problem with SLs.  But it's also people forcing an unconfident SLs hand by taking logi slots without asking permission.

So the argument is to do with SLs and has nothing to do with FOBs at all? Half of your post seems to revolve around the use of FOBs while the other half revolves around Logi feeling forced, that's where my confusion came in, apologies for this but I still don't fully understand the statement. I can agree with the problem of Logi feeling forced on ASL at times, I can't understand the point's made regarding FOBs or waiting times etc etc.

 

 

59 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

Well yes you don't have to directly work with logi but that's not an issue for me.

What i would consider an issue is that the amount of AI at missions and spawned by ambient is determined by the amount of people on the server.  Not by the amount of people in alpha.

I really don't understand this point in relation to the topic, but to clarify, my point you referred to simply states that if Logi were told more often to work independently, Alpha and Logi would get moving faster and ASL would have less responsibility to deal with Logi themselves (if that was wanted, which it seems like it is from the post).

 

59 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

I enjoy myself more with scripting I&A 3 and other things than with sitting around in base waiting.  And seeing how on average the usage of logi after a restart means that we'll be doing nothing for at least half an hour and not so uncommonly an hour i'll rather go script some stuff.  If these waiting periods become the exception rather than the rule even with a logi i'll have no problem in staying.  
But don't expect from me to stick around trying to find some enjoyment lying around somewhere on AWE when i know i can get my 'dose of enjoyment ' somewhere else in considerably less time.

Okay, I understand that waiting around at base is not fun for you and that you have much better things to do, but by jumping off as fast as you can hit "Abort" over the word "Logi" or "FOB" is a complete overreaction. You talk of making ASLs more confident with their decisions yet you run away from what you find inconvenient rather than offer ideas or suggestions as to how we could leave the Freedom faster, if that is your first priority.

 

Why not, next time you hear those dreaded words, listen to the plan, offer critical analysis, suggest Logi's independence from Alpha and request focus more towards Alpha's objective rather than Logis. If the ASL denies your suggestions or rejects your analysis, so be it, he is the b0ss, but you can't talk of increasing ASL confidence, pointing your finger at Logi and not offering any help.

 

Apologies for the harshness of this statement, no hard feelings personally, more than towards the idea of blame and predicament itself.

 

 

 

 

46 minutes ago, Amentes said:

SL should never have to ask people to slot out of Logi, as there shouldn't ever be people in Legi without them first having asked SL. What I've seen too many times is that someone will go into PlatCo, open up whatever he wants, then slot into that. This happens without people having talked to SL.

Agreed, but to clarify, my statement was not that I will ask Logi to re-slot, but instead suggest them doing so while unofficially ordered, due to the benefits it may have for the server. If they reject this, fair enough, but I can't promise I'll use them. This goes the same for other roles like Vortex and Hammer, in my personal experience.

 

Yes, there shouldn't be a Logi without a CMD, but often there is, I know I am to blame for this many a time only when I ASL. Your point made about people taking CMD to then open the role they desire to play as is quite shocking.

 

 

29 minutes ago, Noah_Hero said:

will a new/unexperienced ASL really do that as well? I doubt it!

Agreed, but unfortunately most new players are greatly intimidated (especially by the ASL role) mainly due to the fact that the majority of AWE players measure cocks and bite each others fucking heads off over any sign of mistake. AWE is rarely a friendly environment for outsiders, but still more so than the days of Gauntlet.

 

One of the largest problems of AWE is the bewildering constant need for people to try and 1up eachother. This can be done through many ways, from demonstrating superiority of knowledge in a twattish manor or trying to show a rookie the ropes in the "coolest" way possible before anyone else can. This  is the main AWE problem. 

 

(@Minipily)

[Johnson]

In response to the possible argument over the use of FOBs, a simple teleporter would work as much as the ability to spawn on the FOB directly.

 

This is in alignment with @McKillen's statement.

[Stanhope]

Right let me list my problems in bullet points, hopefully that makes it clearer:

 

• People taking logi without explicitly asking ASL
• ASLs not asking people to leave logi when he doesn't want them
• 3x guys in logi taking 60 minutes to set up an FOB that has 5 H-barrier, a vehicle and plane spawner and a spawn point.
• 3x guys being in logi while there are only 5x people in alpha (no base was not the freedom nor was it on malden)
• Logi being used every single time i joined the server in the last 3 weeks (except 2-3 times)
• The delays caused by the usage of logi right after a restart
• The fact that I've got more enemies shooting me because 3 guys are sitting somewhere messing about with logi crates

Now not all of these points apply to everyone all the time.  Yes there are ASLs that can make logi and FOBs work like a charm.  There are ASLs that get us out of base in 10 minutes after a restart.  Those points are the average of what i've seen the past 3 weeks.
 

15 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

Okay, I understand that waiting around at base is not fun for you and that you have much better things to do, but by jumping off as fast as you can hit "Abort" over the word "Logi" or "FOB" is a complete overreaction. You talk of making ASLs more confident with their decisions yet you run away from what you find inconvenient rather than offer ideas or suggestions as to how we could leave the Freedom faster, if that is your first priority.

 

Why not, next time you hear those dreaded words, listen to the plan, offer critical analysis, suggest Logi's independence from Alpha and request focus more towards Alpha's objective rather than Logis. If the ASL denies your suggestions or rejects your analysis, so be it, he is the b0ss, but you can't talk of increasing ASL confidence, pointing your finger at Logi and not offering any help.

Because that will not help an unconfident SL.  If I immediately, publicly criticize his decisions he's not gonna be inclined to take that slot again.  In this thread i have not pointed a finger at any person.  This way people who take ASL aren't publicly criticized and can decide for themselves whether or not they want to keep 'SLing' like they do.

And I've not seen a single instance in which suggesting a different plan has sped things up.  90% of the time it slows things down even further.

 

 

And no it's not like i hit alt+f4 as soon as i hear logi or FOB.  It's as soon as i hear/see someone taking logi and telling the SL that they are going to set up a FOB.

 

21 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

Your point made about people taking CMD to then open the role they desire to play as is quite shocking.

Really?  To put it bluntly: have you stuck your head under a rock the last 2 months or something?  It's been happening pretty much 4-5 times a week for the last 2 months.

 

28 minutes ago, McKillen said:

Instead the first 20 minutes is set up creating an FOB. IT should never take longer than this to setup a basic FOB if you choose a good location.

And yet it does.

 

29 minutes ago, McKillen said:

Now, what (in my eyes, correct me if wrong) your saying is that you want people to rely less on FOBs and more on vortex? But then that ruins the small groups of people that want to play. Ruins it for the groups of five that want to use vehicles to aid their progress.

Yes and no.  I said I'd appreciate it if logi wasn't used every single day.  And unless you're on altis or lithium there isn't a single place you cannot fly to in less than 5 minutes.

 

30 minutes ago, McKillen said:

It's not our fault that when other larger groups come on, it seems like a mess. 

Well respectfully it is.  All the guy in command has to do to make it less of a mess is make a map marker telling people where to respawn.  Problem solved.

 

31 minutes ago, McKillen said:

Now, instead of sitting arguing, how about we try to figure this out?

How do you suggest we do that?  I suggest talking about it in a forum post.

 

31 minutes ago, McKillen said:

How about there is a way to temporarily disable or remove a spawnpoint? That way there is no confusion for the newer players, but it would be able to get re-enabled again at a later time? That, other than telling people to outright not do something, is the only good solution I see to this.

Why make it difficult?  Just put a marker on the map, fixed instantly.

 

 

[Karate Pyjamas]

FOB's are amazing when the full potential of Stilleto is used. The town scouting for intel and such is so much fun. I'd rather have a FOB down, do some scouting then head over to the mission instead of the 'insert-kill things-get out' kind of missions. Far too often people focus on the main mission so much when there is so much to do and explore. Stilleto is a great sandbox to approach missions in a variety of ways. FOB's are a great way to exploit everything Stilleto has to offer.

[Adshield]

46 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

People taking logi without explicitly asking ASL

This can be fixed by ASL saying to them that they don't want an FOB.

Also its probably caused by people wanting the Logi role and want to reserve it so somebody else doesn't steal it while they ask for ASL permission.

47 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

ASLs not asking people to leave logi when he doesn't want them

Then ASL needs to tell them.

50 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

3x guys in logi taking 60 minutes to set up an FOB that has 5 H-barrier, a vehicle and plane spawner and a spawn point.

there are many reasons why building a FOB can be time consuming:

1. loading individual boxes with the correct items [knowing what the AT crew is using to take the correct ammunition and getting a briefing on how long he FOB will be used for]

2. The Logi Boxes transport [if driving it will take a while and you might find enemies on route to deal with, if flying the box can often drop off the ropes and fall to the bottom of the ocean meaning the hole task has to be redone]

3. actually getting the FOB setup [some may require more defences or enemies to be cleared from the area first]

4. getting everything to fit within the FOB [vehicle spawns and service pads are large]

5. actually finding a place to get a FOB setup [Malden is terrible for FOBs as there are no partially set up FOBs like Camp Maxwell on Stratis]

6. actually wanting the FOB to look good.

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

3x guys being in logi while there are only 5x people in alpha (no base was not the freedom nor was it on malden)

It was Altis which is a big map. if you plan to drive people to the missions and have vehicle cover then its very boring for passengers or unrealistic [vehicles are NOT combat effective after being dropped or unloaded from an aircraft in real life]. infantry will be waiting a long time for cas support or evac if the distance is long as the heli actually has to go back to base to rearm/switch aircraft without an FOB. Also if there is an FOB setup it may not be close to a new mission and in that case a new FOB is required.

so yes having 3 people setup FOBs can be good, as they can all set up 1 megaFOB quickly, or lots of smaller FOBs at the same time.

remember they can always reslot into alpha after the FOB is built.

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

Logi being used every single time i joined the server in the last 3 weeks (except 2-3 times)

Is this actually a problem? people want to do a specific role and ASL has requested it then all is happy. logi is very useful, setting up FOBs and running reinserts from it. remember some people don't always want to be doing infantry roles constantly, myself included, and would much rather build an FOB and drive people to and from the mission.

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

The delays caused by the usage of logi right after a restart

If done correctly than there is no delay, i.e. logi builds while infantry do another mission.

 

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

The fact that I've got more enemies shooting me because 3 guys are sitting somewhere messing about with logi crates

If a few more enemies is a problem then your plan is not good enough, running balls deep into the enemy town is not a valid plan and scouting out the area from a distance is greatly advised. also in the time it takes for you or vortex to recon the area Logi could have the vitals of a FOB setup so you could stage the attack there for greater effectiveness.

[Ryko]

I have a few comments to make here of a general nature which I hope provides clarity on some of the intentions behind Stiletto.

 

1) Multiple missions, multiple roles: Stiletto was built from the ground up on the principle that Gauntlet fails when there were too many players. It's super hard to balance enemy forces beyond about 12 players, especially when air and armor assets get thrown into the mix. Thus Stiletto envisioned several concurrent objectives running simultaneously.  And if you're stuck for something to do, there is nothing wrong with patrolling the civilian areas to gather intel, remove mines, and eliminate insurgent forces in hostile zones.

 

2) Muh immersion: as of right now there is only one teleporter, and that's for Vortex pilots to use to get from the Selakano base to the Freedom and back. I have intentionally tried to restrict teleporters in a game situation because they completely negate the need for Vortex to act as transport, or for players to transport themselves. In short, I don't want to rely on teleporters as a short cut, because I feel that will turn the game mode into an arcade setting.

 

3) Multiple FOBs: I do not agree with this concept, but then, I didn't provide players with tools for removing FOB assets. I added the Logistics functions on an as-is basis without much guidance, but at this point I'd suggest that players construct only one FOB. For reasons that Stanhope has mentioned, multiple FOBs don't really help. When a FOB is in play, the player in command should write instructions on the map that help newly-spawning players figure out where to go.

 

In a future update to Stiletto I will probably make it so that creating a new FOB infantry spawn point will remove the previous one.

 

While it's not preferred by some, there's nothing wrong with respawning to get to where you need to be.

 

4) Squad Rally point: Don't forget that the Squad leader has the ability to deploy a rally point to make an interim respawn position.

 

5) Creation of the Logi squad: It is NOT using the dynamic groups system as intended to go Plat Co, create a Logi squad, and then leave Plat Co to join that squad. If you're going Plat Co, you should really stay in that role as it suggests there are a large number of players that require coordination between their roles. (Functionally, a Platoon Commander can act as a Squad Leader, anyway.) If there is an ASL in play, going PC to create Logi without getting approval from the ASL is also very bad form. The creation of the Logi squad should be done at the command level, and as always should be dependent on the circumstances.

 

The example Stan initially referenced, I was the ASL who went PC and authorized a Logi squad, which quickly filled up leaving Alpha very much under powered. I did allow a Logi squad because

a) It's Altis, which is a large map and can benefit from it

b ) Players asked for it, and so long as it doesn't hamper the enjoyment of gameplay for others, I like to let everyone do what they want to do

c) I did ask Logi to remove a member so that Alpha could have one, so that Alpha would have an extra gun.

It didn't stop Alpha from beginning to proceed to its first mission: in short, Logi had its own mission, and Alpha had its own mission. Unfortunately, the server decided to crash at that point.

 

- R

[Amentes]

22 minutes ago, Adshield said:

Also its probably caused by people wanting the Logi role and want to reserve it so somebody else doesn't steal it while they ask for ASL permission.

Then ASL needs to tell them.

Yet in nearly all cases, this requires them to first open up Logi through PlatCo. That should never happen without first checking with the player in command.

 

23 minutes ago, Adshield said:

there are many reasons why building a FOB can be time consuming:

1. loading individual boxes with the correct items [knowing what the AT crew is using to take the correct ammunition and getting a briefing on how long he FOB will be used for]

2. The Logi Boxes transport [if driving it will take a while and you might find enemies on route to deal with, if flying the box can often drop off the ropes and fall to the bottom of the ocean meaning the hole task has to be redone]

3. actually getting the FOB setup [some may require more defences or enemies to be cleared from the area first]

4. getting everything to fit within the FOB [vehicle spawns and service pads are large]

5. actually finding a place to get a FOB setup [Malden is terrible for FOBs as there are no partially set up FOBs like Camp Maxwell on Stratis]

6. actually wanting the FOB to look good.

 

1: Ask SL for a shopping list, build FOB while waiting for a reply, then stock up. No delay caused, and if it is, that's not on Logi.

2: That's why I prefer to load 300-pointers into Chinook ACE cargo, that way I don't have to worry.

4: Pick an area that isn't tiny. I almost always look at FOBs from the air and go "Huh, where did they want me to land?"

5: We only have so many maps though. It's not that hard to find a suitable location, especially when so many of us know the maps pretty well.

6: Again I find this is largely a problem relating to people trying to limit the size too much.

 

3:

If I was gonna run with a FOB, I'd start off by flying everybody there in whatever size bird I needed.

Primary force could assist in clearing out anything in Logi's way, and then push on to a new task.

If flying in on a Chinook, a 300-pointer could be loaded in ACE cargo allowing for the immediate construction of a vehicle spawn.

Pilot assists Logi with delivery of construction crates, everyone else deals with a task, goes on a patrol, anything else to keep them occupied.

 

42 minutes ago, Adshield said:

 

If done correctly than there is no delay, i.e. logi builds while infantry do another mission.

 

In my experience, sadly, "done correctly" seems like a rare state of affairs.

 

47 minutes ago, Adshield said:

people want to do a specific role and ASL has requested it then all is happy. logi is very useful, setting up FOBs and running reinserts from it. remember some people don't always want to be doing infantry roles constantly, myself included, and would much rather build an FOB and drive people to and from the mission.

 

Where does this end though?

Should we open up Bravo and Charlie so we can have 6 Autorifleman and 3 Marksmen? What about having 4 pilots?

[Stanhope]

2 hours ago, Karate Pyjamas said:

FOB's are amazing when the full potential of Stilleto is used. The town scouting for intel and such is so much fun. I'd rather have a FOB down, do some scouting then head over to the mission instead of the 'insert-kill things-get out' kind of missions. Far too often people focus on the main mission so much when there is so much to do and explore. Stilleto is a great sandbox to approach missions in a variety of ways. FOB's are a great way to exploit everything Stilleto has to offer.

Most definitely.

 

1 hour ago, Adshield said:

This can be fixed by ASL saying to them that they don't want an FOB.

Also its probably caused by people wanting the Logi role and want to reserve it so somebody else doesn't steal it while they ask for ASL permission.

[...]

Then ASL needs to tell them.

I recall an incident where you left the server saying "i'm gonna kill myself" after an SL told you to reslot into alpha.  And you're surprised that some SLs don't tell people to reslot?

 

2 hours ago, Adshield said:

there are many reasons why building a FOB can be time consuming

Doesn't take away from the fact that these time consuming things shouldn't slow down alpha.  Which they currently still do.

 

2 hours ago, Adshield said:

3 hours ago, Stanhope said:

3x guys being in logi while there are only 5x people in alpha (no base was not the freedom nor was it on malden)

It was Altis which is a big map.

When it happend on altis i was fine with it.  The instance i was referencing wasn't on altis.

 

2 hours ago, Adshield said:

they can always reslot into alpha after the FOB is built.

They can yes but let's be honest does that happen?  I've personally seen it happen only a handful of times.  Heck a while back the last mission on a map popped, disarm the nuke.  I hinted at logi that the map would end soon.  They just kept building their fob instead of helping to disarm the nuke.

 

2 hours ago, Adshield said:

3 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Logi being used every single time i joined the server in the last 3 weeks (except 2-3 times)

Is this actually a problem? people want to do a specific role and ASL has requested it then all is happy. logi is very useful, setting up FOBs and running reinserts from it. remember some people don't always want to be doing infantry roles constantly, myself included, and would much rather build an FOB and drive people to and from the mission.

Logi being taken every single time, except a handful of times, itself is not a problem no.  Combine that with the other points i listed then yes.  Almost none of those points on themself are a problem.  Together they are.

 

2 hours ago, Adshield said:

If done correctly than there is no delay

Indeed if done correctly.

 

2 hours ago, Adshield said:

If a few more enemies is a problem then your plan is not good enough, running balls deep into the enemy town is not a valid plan and scouting out the area from a distance is greatly advised. also in the time it takes for you or vortex to recon the area Logi could have the vitals of a FOB setup so you could stage the attack there for greater effectiveness.

Thing is by the time SL is ready dealing with logi and stuff like that he forgets to plan for the actual mission because he notices how long we've been sitting in base already.  (Again not every time, not with all SL, but often enough to be mentioned)

 

 

[Adshield]

2 hours ago, Stanhope said:

I recall an incident where you left the server saying "i'm gonna kill myself" after an SL told you to reslot into alpha.  And you're surprised that some SLs don't tell people to reslot?

Yet again it was SARCASM and it is unrelated, nothing is wrong with somebody disconnecting from the server as a slot they want is not available.
A thing you have to remember Ahoyworld is not the military or a job and that playing on EU3 is optional, playing a specific slot is optional, if someone doesn't want to play they don't have to.

nothing is stopping ASL from telling them to re-slot.

 

[Jorgensen73]

Stan, I have played on AWE, but rarely I see that you take the slot of ASL, even if the slot opens up, there is always a “push” for someone else to take the slot. I don’t want to be rude, but do you go over and tell the ASL your opinion when this with Logi happens? I hope you do since you tell everyone else to do this.

I for one have been reluctant to take ASL or even TL since every time I ask especially you for advice you reply “You are in charge” that for me is not helpful. I don’t know all the different helicopters by type and specific details, so instead of blowing people of you could be more helpful. Personally I would love that and eventually be comfortable in a leadership role.

Hope you don’t take this the wrong way, it’s my opinion and I respect your experience in AWE and would like to learn from you instead of feeling like a fool sometimes.

Best regards
Jorgensen73


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