From a humble transport pilot to you..

[hobnob11]

I used to be mainly a lead / medic, as that seemed to be where I could most effectively help other people. Nowadays I've taken to hiding in vortex or some other separate squad because of the vocal disagreements on decisions and fights that happen, but that's besides the point.

 

all I want to do is stop people from not having fun, that's the only reason i play any game. I don't find shooting people or blowing things up that interesting and what with the increase of capable Squad leads appearing, The main source of "non-fun" comes from players waiting around for the gears to start turning. So i started going Vortex where I could best minimize the amount of down time people experience, but now that's started being less and less useful so I ask you this..

 

(Side note: I feel like this could be interpreted as an attack on mini's concept of "ground only no air assets using the FOB", so I'm writing this side note to say that it is NOT that, I think its a cool alternate direction, but i have some questions..)

 

1: Do people not like vortex because it defeats the purpose of real logistical support, such as trucks and humvees? or is it because armed air assets make every battle "a sure victory"?

 

2: I saw in another post stanhope commented:

Quote

Yes i do get that making sure vortex is sitting on their ass doing nothing for 15+ minutes is a real priority and that they couldn't have taken 2 minutes to fly me over to the FOB.  

I can't speak for other pilots, but If I manage to make just 1 person who just joined or died not wait as long, keep them in the game then I'm happy to wait on standby on the carrier for hours. We had a zeus op a while ago which consisted of some towns to clear on altis, and it was just after the rally point had been implemented so there was no need for reinserts. I sat on standby for maybe 3 hours before alpha needed an extraction, just watching the helmet cams and listening to long range, but I flew in and got everyone out, which gave them enough time to go and do something else instead of having to walk back. I'd do that mission again right now if i had the chance.

 

3: (this one is with minis op he did in mind) Say you did have a fob set up, with a logi team sorting out logistical support, but every now and then you had a guy who couldn't spawn at the fob because the JIP'd and didn't have the spawn point, or didn't want to kill them selves.. would you still object to a transport only vortex?

 

4: what happened to fast roping, hell when was the last time anyone did a parajump? there are so many more interesting ways to insert a team other than drive in a convoy or land a click outside and walk in.

 

(off topic question)

5: does anyone know arma scripting well enough to code helmet cams into the new map based system, its lonely on the carrier nowadays.

[Noah_Hero]

13 minutes ago, hobnob11 said:

Do people not like vortex because it defeats the purpose of real logistical support, such as trucks and humvees? or is it because armed air assets make every battle "a sure victory"?

I don´t have a single problem with Vortex and I also don´t think that Vortex renders all the LOGI-stuff useless. Just think of the AL-Rayak MSO where we worked perfectly as LOGI while also having a Vortex. The trick is just to split the work so that everyone has got something to do. And about the last part: I think it is always nice to have a CAS that saves you the day but preferably one in a Heli (reason for why will come after the next quote).

 

17 minutes ago, hobnob11 said:

3: (this one is with minis op he did in mind) Say you did have a fob set up, with a logi team sorting out logistical support, but every now and then you had a guy who couldn't spawn at the fob because the JIP'd and didn't have the spawn point, or didn't want to kill them selves.. would you still object to a transport only vortex?

Well since you can do CAS in a little-bird wich still got two other seats you still can do reinserts without having to switch vehicles. So I´d rather have a vortex who can do all jobs when needed instead of only doing CAS or only doing transport. (Except of course if there is 2xVortex since then one can do CAS and the other one transport)

 

21 minutes ago, hobnob11 said:

4: what happened to fast roping

I guess it isn´t used much because of all the problems that can occur. But we did it at least like two weeks ago.

22 minutes ago, hobnob11 said:

hell when was the last time anyone did a parajump?

Saturday @ 02:30am Johnson, Mini and myself did one. (dropped with parachutes and diving gear and swam up to the coast south of Kamino firing range. It was super cool but we experienced a lot of issues like only beeing able to swim slow or like Mini not beeing able to move at all after landing in the water

25 minutes ago, hobnob11 said:

there are so many more interesting ways to insert a team other than drive in a convoy or land a click outside and walk in.

Totally on your side! Even though it is mostly totally unecessarry I usually like parachuting in, diving in, driving in by boat, etc.

 

27 minutes ago, hobnob11 said:

5: does anyone know arma scripting well enough to code helmet cams into the new map based system, its lonely on the carrier nowadays.

I have no idea if that is possible and if it is how but I can recommend watching soviet womble or therussianbadger on YouTube

[Minipily]

2 hours ago, hobnob11 said:

1: Do people not like vortex because it defeats the purpose of real logistical support, such as trucks and humvees? or is it because armed air assets make every battle "a sure victory"?

 

2: I saw in another post stanhope commented:

I can't speak for other pilots, but If I manage to make just 1 person who just joined or died not wait as long, keep them in the game then I'm happy to wait on standby on the carrier for hours. We had a zeus op a while ago which consisted of some towns to clear on altis, and it was just after the rally point had been implemented so there was no need for reinserts. I sat on standby for maybe 3 hours before alpha needed an extraction, just watching the helmet cams and listening to long range, but I flew in and got everyone out, which gave them enough time to go and do something else instead of having to walk back. I'd do that mission again right now if i had the chance.

 

3: (this one is with minis op he did in mind) Say you did have a fob set up, with a logi team sorting out logistical support, but every now and then you had a guy who couldn't spawn at the fob because the JIP'd and didn't have the spawn point, or didn't want to kill them selves.. would you still object to a transport only vortex?

 

4: what happened to fast roping, hell when was the last time anyone did a parajump? there are so many more interesting ways to insert a team other than drive in a convoy or land a click outside and walk in.

 

(off topic question)

5: does anyone know arma scripting well enough to code helmet cams into the new map based system, its lonely on the carrier nowadays.

Before we start, let's try not to start this into another rant about a certain person because I smell it coming.

 

1. Using Vortex is fine, lot's of people still do. However, myself and @J0hnson have started our own little policy where we are going to put a strangle on vortex and limit use of the role because we would like to enforce more ground based logistics, leaving the overall gameplay with a slightly slower yet more rewarding feel while retaining the feeling of a large scale operation with small scale player counts. If people would rather still use Vortex when they lead, awesome, go right on ahead but myself and Johnson have been feeling like limiting it's use and that's fine, it is after all the leaders decision and fortunately the decision has gone well with the majority of the player base.

 

2. The post he made was targeted at myself, I was sitting on the carrier for 15+ minutes as I was ordered to be on stand-by and not leave the deck. To use up some of that time, I spent some time trying to load up at Fast-mover for CAS which took additional time because I am not fully aware of all the FIRWIL systems and I was debating if they were going to work with the 2 seater F-18. Sadly the 2 seater F-18 wouldn't share weapons operation with the weapons officer in the back so I had to grab an F-14. Overall however, I was where I was supposed to be and that was standing by on the carrier. I myself like you, do not object to sitting around "doing nothing" for minutes maybe hours because in the end, i'm doing what i was ordered to do, and there is such an order as waiting.

 

3. I personally would not object too much if they wanted to be flown in rather than start at the FOB like ordered to, however my commanding officer saw differently and sadly, sometimes peoples preferences do indeed slow down operations sometimes. Fortunately, the new version of Stilletto has smoothed over this issue, and there should be no reason for a player to not start at the FOB now. If they still refuse to, if myself and @J0hnson are in command we will simply say, tough.

 

4. Fast roping only works on choppers if they have the fast roping equipment, which at the moment I believe seems to only be the little birds and sometimes the Venoms. I and others wouldn't object to fast roping, but of course there is a time and a place to do so and you do not need to fast rope into a large open area that a bird could just land in unless it was some sort of a hurry. @J0hnson also occasionally does para-jumps, but once again, there is a time and a place and sometimes organizing one can be a hassle. But! If you have an idea for a cool insert or operation, talk to me or Johnson and we'll listen, we're all for doing new things.

 

5. I don't know anything about scripting unfortunately, I know @Jochem does however and he may have a suggestion, otherwise @Ryko himself may be able to answer. 

 

Hope I could answer some questions from my point of view at least.

[Jochem]

Look what I did just for the hell of it:

Spoiler

 

 

Code in file (tested ONLY in SP, it's entirely possible it doesn't work in MP)

helmetCam.sqf

[Ryko]

And on the topic of maps:

 

 

The only stumbling block is I can't figure out how to "zoom in" and out, ie., change the scale of the map.

[hobnob11]

on the topic of vortex:

so in the ops where you restrict vortex, would you be opposed to a transport vortex who is basically a 5th logi guy, say for example we're on a carrier map, if all vortex did was ferry troops to the fob, then logi would drive them in. and if logi wanted he could also go and get boxes?

 

on the topic of the scripts:

@Ryko the minimap looks promising, (kinda need to control zoom, but im sure you'll be able to figure that out. does bluefor tracker work with it? because the ace mini tablet thing doesn't..

 

@Jochem GIB, IMMA MAKE A FEATURE REQUEST RITE NOW HOLD UP.

[Jochem]

@Ryko didn't have the time to go check in-game, but something like this might work:

Spoiler

//_mapCtrl you should get from the script that creates the map view

_mapCentre = _mapCtrl ctrlMapScreenToWorld [0.5, 0.5];

_mapCtrl ctrlMapAnimAdd [0, ace_map_minMapSize + 0.01 /*<- this zooms out, use a negative value to zoom in*/, _mapCentre];
ctrlMapAnimCommit _mapCtrl;

 

[Minipily]

2 hours ago, hobnob11 said:

on the topic of vortex:

so in the ops where you restrict vortex, would you be opposed to a transport vortex who is basically a 5th logi guy, say for example we're on a carrier map, if all vortex did was ferry troops to the fob, then logi would drive them in. and if logi wanted he could also go and get boxes?

If it's something we need, sure. I believe with the new version of Stilletto, troops can now just spawn at a FOB if one is active so initial ferries for those that would rather not respawn isn't going to be required. But usually if we use a Vortex it is indeed to support Logistics when wet feet to dry feet (carrier to land) is required and/or if we otherwise require supplies faster via air.

[Amentes]

58 minutes ago, Minipily said:

But usually if we use a Vortex it is indeed to support Logistics when wet feet to dry feet (carrier to land) is required and/or if we otherwise require supplies faster via air.

Which of course could easily mean that a pilot is used very briefly, and then could expect not to be any use from there?

 

Of course you might then ask said Pilot to reslot, but if you're already using Shelldrake and/or a UAV Operator, couldn't both those features be substituted for one Pilot? I'd argue that would be the better solution, especially given the mantra: "In COD, you call in a Hellfire strike. In ArmA, you perform the Hellfire strike."

 

Everybody knows I adhere to the rules, and from what I have seen, no rule has been broken so far.

 

But, personally, I'd never ask someone to reslot out of something that they're allowed to play. I prefer to work with what I am given, as far as is possible.

 

The only thing I'd really ask of you, Johnson and yourself, is that you try to expedite things a bit more. My experience a few days back was one of leaving Freedom after 20 minutes of waiting for god knows what, and then sitting on a proposed FOB location for 40 or so minutes doing really nothing much at all.

 

In that particular instance, to be fair, Vortex had significant issues with the delivery of a Logi crate, but my thoughts at the time, as now, were of wonderment over why we weren't at least going out on a foot patrol or anything like that. Especially given that you guys like to clear the surrounding area of potential IEDs.

[Johnson]

Mini has covered most of my ideologies about the extended use of FOBs and, in turn, Vortex limitations, but my overall consensus is this:

 

• I love the use of FOBs because I think it gives a much more immersive, multidimensional experience to AWE.
• By using FOBs more, I am reluctant to use Vortex on any map other than Altis due to the fact that one FOB, placed well, will likely cover most ground.
• I wont say no to Vortex. If a player has a strong desire to remain in Vortex I won't say no, I would just advise them that I may not find a use for them, but I always try to. If they can't accept the fact that I am focusing more on ground use than air, then that simply can't be fair. Basically I don't ask Vortex to re-slot, I just advise against it. I would ask Alpha elements to re-slot as they are my team and I feel like I can see what would work best from a leading position.
• I never forget about re-inserts when running FOBs. Once a FOB is set up, I always have someone on re-insets; it may be a Logi-team convoy, ralleying back and forth from the FOB to the AO at a designated Insertion Point (IP) or it might be a small sized Vortex element landing when instructed at smoke or LZs.
• If anyone has ever had an experience whereby they have waited around for a long time, it is extremely likely that its due to the fact that something has went wrong. For example, in your example @Amentes, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Logi's vehicle was actually knocked out of action. In your example @hobnob11 (referring to Stan's experience) I did not allow Vortex to run Stan in due to the fact that I needed immediate CAS. We spent 5 minutes knocking out a Singer team (PLA) and then I gave them the all clear to slingshot a F18, this however, took about 20 minutes due to faults in mods(?) I was told.

 

 

 

The summary of this consensus basically comes down to the fact that I love the use of FOBs as it gives everyone a job to do and brings greater focus to ground assets, where I think more people can have fun. I don't ignore the use of Vortex, I just choose to no longer rely on their capabilities.

 

I think it is so much more fun running with what we have and using air assets only when the time is necessary (realistically). For example, when we set up a FOB on Stratis the other day we did a few well executed objectives, but then a huge, high risk objective appeared and I got Vortex to recon it. They reported back way more PLA forces than we could handle, so I kept them on standby for CAS and set up a JTAC position before proceeding to laze targets and neutralize the majority of the force. Then we moved in to clean up and complete the objective.

 

I have nothing against Vortex, I would just personally much rather use them when I have to. If I was not an ASL, I would keep my mouth shut and follow orders. If the ASL said were not setting up a FOB, then fair enough, I'll make slight suggestions as a Team Leader (nothing less) but ultimately their orders are final and I won't require any convincing. A hard objective is a fun objective and there is no objective too hard on AWE, due to the amount of supports available.

[Stanhope]

23 minutes ago, J0hnson said:

If anyone has ever had an experience whereby they have waited around for a long time, it is extremely likely that its due to the fact that something has went wrong.  In your example @hobnob11 (referring to Stan's experience) I did not allow Vortex to run Stan in due to the fact that I needed immediate CAS. We spent 5 minutes knocking out a Singer team (PLA) and then I gave them the all clear to slingshot a F18, this however, took about 20 minutes due to faults in mods(?) I was told.

Let me put what i saw happening in writing:

I joined the server and got my kit on the carrier as that's where you spawn in.  Immediately after this, I messaged johnson (ingame time: 4:55) that i was on the carrier awaiting insert.  Yes I saw the markers telling me to respawn, however I can't be forced to.  And I feel it kills immersion if you just respawn.  Up until a few days ago I did do it as I wasn't 100% sure that I could refuse.  Hence why I asked in this topic.  Now I am 100% sure i can refuse to respawn if I don't want to.   As we had a vortex and several other ways of getting to the FOB and nothing was bugged out in such a way that respawning might fix it I refused to respawn.

 

At 05:02 (ingame time) I noticed that we had a vortex and also messaged him that i was awaiting insertion.  At around 05:10 I noticed that something was bugged, i couldn't actually see vortex even tho he was standing right next to me.  As I know that isn't fixed by respawning, I went back to the lobby and came back in.  I grabbed my kit again and now 2 vortex' were standing at the arsenal.  I continued to wait until someone told me what to do. (apart from respawning obviously) 

 

At 05:27 ingame time i noticed vortex spooling up a chinook.  He hooked a logi crate and flew off to the FOB.  At no point in time was I asked to board that chopper.  The other vortex was still standing at the arsenal at that point in time.  So a vortex flew to the FOB and didn't take me.  Now I hope you understand why that bugs me.

It's around this time that I asked the following question to the modded moderators:
"30ish minutes of me sitting on the carrier, both vortex and asl know that i'm here.  What do I do now?"

After that I got a PM from ryko, what exactly was said is not something I will share publicly, it was a private conversation.  But after some talking I agreed to respawn because some stuff was going to change in the next version.  I can't tell what, it's not my place to do so.  

While I was talking to ryko i continued to wait ingame.  At 05:39 ingame time I messaged johnson for the second time that I was waiting for insert.

At 05:46 I received the very first message from johnson, so 51 minutes after I send my first message.  It read: "Vortex is not tasked with re-inserting.  If YOU wish to regroup you will need to respawn."

At that point in time i was actually in the respawn screen because of what I talked about with ryko.  

  
If I was told to grab a boat and drive it all the way around stratis so i could disembark close to the FOB I would have.  Heck if I was told to swim to the FOB I would have done that.  

Several things bug me in this situation.
First of vortex flew to the FOB and could have taken me.  I have no clue why I didn't get to go along.
It took ASL 51 bloody minutes to tell me that he would not provide transport for me.  I don't care that you won't provide transport for me basically forcing me to respawn but tell me that within a timeframe of say 5 minutes.  Not 51 minutes.  That way I can chose between compromising my values with gameplay or leave. 

It seemed to me that ASL assumed that i was asking specifically for a heli to fly me in.  I never asked specifically for a vortex.  As mentioned I would have taken a boat or swam there.  I'm just not doing that without permission to do so.

 

Just what i saw happening as a player on AWE.

[Amentes]

1 hour ago, J0hnson said:

 @Amentes, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Logi's vehicle was actually knocked out of action.

The specific example happened on a freshly started scenario. Sadly I was not the only one to leave; if anyone else wishes to name themselves I'll leave it to them.

 

My issue in the example is that it did not appear to me like the majority of players were happy with sitting around, evident by the fact that half of the infantry initially moved outside of the FOB area, but was ordered back.

 

No ground vehicles were present at the time, because the FOB had not been built. I even suggested that it really wasn't necessary for all of us to sit at the FOB location as Logi had their own SL and shouldn't need to be micro-managed, not least becuase that SL was Jochem hisself.

 

I have no problem with long drives, or boat rides; but in this case I waited 20 minutes on the Freedom, then 40 minutes at the proposed FOB location.. Hell, upon entering the location I was asked why I was running around with my weapon up, clearing the buildings, even to the point of me ignoring your order as SL to get my weapon down because I was scaring the civillians in the area. Nobody else was even remotely prepared for contact; which makes me completely unable to grasp why we were going there, and why we were standing around after arriving.

 

Simply moving off on foot, either on one of your anti-IED foot patrols, towards a scenario objective, somewhere to gather intel, or one of the multiple spawn camps that was spotted by multiple players from the FOB location.

In the end, I decided I had better things to do, more or less basing that decision on not being the only one to quit for the evening.

 

It's something that could have been solved so damn easily, is why I'm bringing it up. I have no issue with the general decisions made, but I see no reason why it took more than 5 minutes to leave Freedom, and why we waited around so long after reaching the FOB setup location.

Hell, if you wanna do a FOB thing with Logi driving people around and avoiding Vortex whenever possible, if that's what people on server want, I'm fine with it. I just don't wanna wait around for an hour for basically no reason.

[Vlk]

Find a way to play toghether. I’ll be mad if we loose more players than we already did due to some fucking new super ideas which few seem to care about. Jesus Christ. Can we just fucking get along at something sometimes?


Sent from my iPhone using a phone app that is really irritating because it constantly advertises itself.

[Ryko]

Stay on target, people - there are good points and ideas in this thread.

 

As much as AWE has rules, we also have to be open-minded to new ideas and opportunities for different scenarios, or else, it is indeed the same old game every time.

 

If you want to run something a different way, there is nothing stopping you from jumping into the command slot and trying it out.

[Minipily]

1 hour ago, Vlk said:

Find a way to play toghether. I’ll be mad if we loose more players than we already did due to some fucking new super ideas which few seem to care about. Jesus Christ. Can we just fucking get along at something sometimes?


Sent from my iPhone using a phone app that is really irritating because it constantly advertises itself.

This is true but it's a select few situations that caused a little frustration for a little players and they thought they'd explain it, nothing wrong with that. I believe it's all been smoothed over now with Ryko's new version of Stilletto, so with hope, no reason why one wouldn't do as instructed.