FSG: Lets talk about it.

[Minipily]

Also to follow up on Johnson's friendly reminders from a first person perspective as he was in the tank at the time and could understand the playing field as he saw it.

 

I am happy to talk about anything in Teamspeak if folk wanted an after action report from me, I feel that me following up in this message would just create a lengthy post that would possibly steer off topic from what Ryko is trying to say. 

[Johnson]

23 minutes ago, Mungus said:

1) Over micro-management of FSG

2) Failure of ASL to control FSG and/or be aware of FSG's position

I very much agree. In my eyes, this micro-management could be solved by greater use of the CMD role.

 

I see A LOT of people hating a player when he takes CMD, but to be perfectly honest, when there's more than one element running, I would so much agree with the use of CMD. Yes it may not be absolutely necessary as ASL can just lead a few elements at a time, but as Stan has said in his replies, it may be difficult to control both FSG and his fireteams, especially in such a tight location like that.

 

I know myself and @Amentes discussed the use of CMD, agreeing on the point that it would certainly be useful in CQB, where ASL really has to focus.

 

Overall, I think CMD is way underused and hated for no reason. Would be nice to see it a bit more.

[Stanhope]

46 minutes ago, Mungus said:

With FSG, ASL tries to control next to every aspect. "We want you to take these weapons, even though you are the ones that should be deciding which weapons you take for the most part since you are the ones that will be using them". 

I know it's tucked away pretty well but: (link)

Quote

Command has the right to tell the unit exactly what platforms he/she wants deployed for a given mission; however, this should be a discussion where appropriate.

Can be found under the Specific Support Section Information => FSG of the first post.

I won't tell anyone to take a weapon system they or I am not familiar with.  

 

46 minutes ago, Mungus said:

Stan is complaining that he didn't know where FSG was when he needed them, but it is both FSG and ASLs fault.

I did look at my Ctab, he doesn't show up on that because he choses not to carry one.  Now that's up to him i couldn't care less.  But then don't expect to get much freedom as i can't track whether or not you're abusing it.
 

46 minutes ago, Mungus said:

FSG didn't tell ASL they were moving and ASL wasn't paying enough attention to notice that FSG had moved off.

Well if they are behind me i'm not looking back to check.  I'll occasionally glance at Ctab.  But is it reasonable to expect that i'm constantly looking around where all the teams are in person?  It's 100 times easier to simply open your Ctab and you instantly have the big picture.
Again if nobody of that team wants to take a Ctab, fine by me.  Just don't expect much freedom.

 

46 minutes ago, Mungus said:

Make FSG like Vortex, only players known for their reliability to listen to ASL can be in it unless stated otherwise. 

Vortex isn't like that currently.  

 

46 minutes ago, Mungus said:

If there are players who consistently not doing what you tell them to, do something about it rather than complaining FSG doesn't listen to your orders on the forums.

Talking on the forum is also dealing with it?  

 

46 minutes ago, Mungus said:

I feel that FSG is perhaps being over managed as other squads, such as Alpha, have a lot of freedom as to how they operate. They choose the weapons they take, how they proceed to the objective, what they do in an emergency.

Define an emergency.  For alpha 1 it's a way bigger deal that an MBT comes rolling up than for an FSG team that has a MAAWS.  
And no in general i'll simply get Alpha 1 to take point alpha 2 to either be directly behind 1 or next to 1.  The ASL team will follow on a distance determined by the terrain and any support team with AT about 100-200 meters behind that.  

I'll complain just as much if alpha 2 is all of the sudden 2 blocks over from alpha 1 then if FSG does the exact same.

[Numbnuts]

Complains that FSG is a meme team requests that hammer be made available to everyone. surely you can see how this will end if your solution for when someone makes a meme team is to delete the squad they are in they will just jump from one squad to another when you delete them. all this does is punish the people that played the squad as was intended. there will always be meme teams but deleting the squads just punishes the player base.

[LEO]

22 hours ago, Ryko said:

 

 A new role in the infantry teams will be created - Rifleman Anti-Tank, taking the place of the Grenadier.  The Rifleman AT will have access to all the same heavy anti-tank weaponry available to the FSG specialist: for the Western factions, the BAF Javelin, the RHS MAAWS, the RHS SMAW, and for the first time, the BAF N-LAW.

 

 

 

i think this approach is rather lopsided when it comes to how the teams are gone be used. So I suggest that you instead have a squad setup like this.

ASL

Alpha squad lead

Intel operative

Weapons specialist (allow him to use bolt-action rifles and mawws and mortars)

And a weapons assistant

And let A1/2 remain the way they where.

TL

AR

ENGI

LAT

MEDIC

This will make the squad balanced so the alpha teams can be used interchangeably instead of the current system where one team is extremely heavy on AT and the odder team has the only engineer.

 

PS.

+ that the squad leader has better control on the heavy weapons players and dispatch them accordingly

[Adshield]

On 30/10/2017 at 3:40 PM, hobnob11 said:

2: They throw a tantrum when they don't get to do what they want, often disconnecting instead of switching to a more needed role like alpha, quoting how asking for more people in ASL than FSG is killing all fun possible.

What i guess you are quoting here is my action to disconnect after being told that we cant take FSG however I don't see this as a point as a reason to remove FSG. In the case my disconnecting is not an issue with the role it is my personal preference to play the role. The case involved Mini Johnson and I taking the FSG role while Alpha was slotting up after a restart. [this was done after we saw there was enough people to fill alpha SL, 1 and 2]. After taking the role we were told to get out of the roles and slot up in the still filling alpha or bravo, at which point we asked a reason why, which we were told 'because I don't want to use FSG and instead use Vortex in CAS' [I don't personally agree that CAS is a better alternative, and can actually cause more issues, but its not my decision]. At which point I disconnected as i don't enjoy the available roles. The roles available were: medic, which i neither enjoy or are skilled in using; Team lead, which I don't enjoy; and marksman which i am not familiar with using. so i therefore i disconnected, there was no tantrum or saying that it 'kills all the possible fun'. Therefore it isn't a valid point to use against the use of FSG, it is saying you have a problem with the players.

 

Put simply I would much rather have fun playing a different game, such as Skyrim, than not have fun on Arma after being forced to do something i don't enjoy.

On 30/10/2017 at 3:40 PM, hobnob11 said:

4: this is my biggest problem with the team, they take up 5 players. the server doesn't get as many people as it used too at peak times, and having 5 of them go into a separate team just guts Alpha's already limited effectiveness, causing the rest of the players to be stuck in what feels like an impossible situation (read: 3 alpha guys pinned down by 2 bmp's with no AT while FSG is calling for an evac because they are combat ineffective) 

 

I think the mission which you are mentioning here is one in which we did two missions without returning to base however I may be incorrect. In this case FSG requested a resupply however after entering the mission area Alpha then started to engage contact including a Marid, kamysh and mounted Quilin while FSG was still waiting for the supplies and making it clear that we were not combat effective. The result was FSG being KIA apart from Johnson and Alpha being completely killed bar a few knocked out players. After re-inserting with assistance from Zeus [Ammunition wise] the mission was completed.

A point to remember as acting command, make sure the entire team is combat effective before charging head first into a mission.

another point about this is that some of the FSG equipment is severely limited in carry capacity for example only 1 ATGM can be carried for the Javelin per person without an ammo box, so if the 2-3 rounds have been used the unit is useless without resupply.

this point is therefore also not a valid point against FSG but instead saying that the communication isn't working and that the acting command wasn't checking the other teams or planning enough before starting the mission.

On 30/10/2017 at 3:40 PM, hobnob11 said:

My solution to this "problem" is to tell FSG to go alpha / bravo as an inf squad, and have 3 pilots, 2 in a heavy CAS bird that can engage the kind of targets FSG is supposed too and one dedicated to transport. this provides the same level of "lol point and click no skill izi pizi tank dead" that a well equipped FSG team has, but only taking up 2 people instead of 5. And they have much less difficulty dealing with the specific target you want to die.

I have 3 issues with this:

1.From playing EU3 my experience with CAS has been worse than your experiences with FSG with many occasions of Vortex killing friendlies, killing entire missions and not listening to command when told to hold fire and recon. A new point to take into consideration is the 'Laws of War' we are supposed to follow, as an A10 GBU run for example will destroy many buildings and kill civilians, in contrast a single shell from the MAAWS will just destroy/disable the target vehicle.  I have never had a bad experience with other players in FSG as ASL or command or any other role appart from myself being an idiot when first playing as the specialist back on Gauntlet.

 

2.If the group is smaller as in up to 10 players having 3 pilots is kind of against the rules, and also it means there are 2 pilots supporting 7 players on the ground which cant offer help if the other teams are in need of assistance within a building or medically etc. in this case the 3 players in FSG would serve the same purpose and not annoy ground units buy killing enemy infantry squads.

 

3.Playing FSG is certainly not "lol point and click no skill izi pizi tank dead" but instead actually requires lots of teamwork both within FSG and between the other elements. for example using the MAAWS requires taking the correct type and number of rounds for the expected resistance, finding a suitable firing position which offers a good view of the target without endangering teammates, causing collateral damage or killing yourself with back blasts. The team then has to range the target with adjustments for conditions and elevations, use the correct round [weather it needs HEDP or HEAT etc.] and hit first time and inflict enough damage to avoid the target vehicle getting away or killing you or your teammates. all meanwhile watching for other targets and following commands orders. there are multiple occasions when Johnson or others have required to make very difficult shots to stop the target from killing the entire team including ranges exceeding the optimal ranges and reaching up to 1200m. 

On 30/10/2017 at 3:40 PM, hobnob11 said:

3: the role seems less capable of dealing with threats than an alpha squad nowadays, I don't know if this is because of bugs like the one affecting the new MAAWS, but from my own experience they sure do seem to become "combat ineffective" after killing 1 tank a lot.

A reason for this may be as when FSG is being held behind alpha and alpha has AT then alpha would rather use their AT than call FSG to do it, this is because the most common threats when not fighting PLA are BMPs or BTRs which are easily killed with M72 or shooting out the tires if present. FSG becomes then required when alpha doesn't have missiles which can destroy all of the targets they face, or when fighting larger numbers of armoured targets or the PLA. [The ammunition has been mentioned previously above]. If you want to see FSG being capable just watch when Mini, Johnson, Hybrid or Jochem are in the roles.

 

my final opinion is that the 'issue' presented isn't as a result of the role but it is as a result of some occasional incidents with players. FSG has been present on EU3 since the first stages of Gauntlet, and possibly in patrol ops, in different forms [e.g. MAT,HAT,MMG]with no 'issues' until now.

just my input of the situation and points used to 'justify' it.

[Stanhope]

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

On 30-10-2017 at 4:40 PM, hobnob11 said:

2: They throw a tantrum when they don't get to do what they want, often disconnecting instead of switching to a more needed role like alpha, quoting how asking for more people in ASL than FSG is killing all fun possible.

(...) At which point I disconnected as i don't enjoy the available roles.

I believe hobnob was referring to what you said right before disconnecting when he mentioned throwing a tantrum.  

To quote you:

"Oh well i'm just gonna kill myself then, again." (3-4 inaudible words) "Every single day. Oh no you can't have fun in any way shape or form."

 

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

1.From playing EU3 my experience with CAS has been worse than your experiences with FSG with many occasions of Vortex killing friendlies, killing entire missions and not listening to command when told to hold fire and recon.

Which hasn't happend in a while?

 

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

A new point to take into consideration is the 'Laws of War' we are supposed to follow, as an A10 GBU run for example will destroy many buildings and kill civilians, in contrast a single shell from the MAAWS will just destroy/disable the target vehicle.

Except when that MAAWS is used to clear buildings by blowing them up.  Which has happend in the past.  And an A-10 can mount hellfires.  Which will only destroy the target vehicle if used correctly.  Another alternative is the small diameter bombs, which will also minimize collateral damage.

 

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

2.If the group is smaller as in up to 10 players having 3 pilots is kind of against the rules, and also it means there are 2 pilots supporting 7 players on the ground which cant offer help if the other teams are in need of assistance within a building or medically etc. in this case the 3 players in FSG would serve the same purpose and not annoy ground units buy killing enemy infantry squads.

Say there are 10 players. 

Case 1 the mission is close: you can put 1 vortex in a jet and drive to the AO.  You can put 2 vortexes in an apache/cobra and drive there.  You can put 1 vortex in a venom/little bird/wildcat/... and drive there.  You can put 1 vortex in an attack helo or in a jet and have the other do reinserts.  
You can make due with 1 vortex in this case.
Case 2 the mission is not within driving distance:  you'll have to have 1 vortex on transport.  You can now either put 2 additional pilots in a apache/cobra.  You can also put 1 additional vortex in a jet or attack helo.  Or you can do inserts with a wildcat.  Meaning the transport vortex doubles as CAS.

 

So no, a 3 man FSG team would not serve the same purpose as they for starters lack the firepower of any of the attack helos and jets.  Secondly FSG doesn't have any transport capability.  Vortex can have both cas and transport capabilities.  Thirdly a vortex can be anywhere within the AO in a matter of seconds regardless of the airframe.  (presume that just as FSG they were in the AO to start with.) Fourthly FSG cannot give the same intel as a vortex can because they don't have a birdseye view of the AO.  

 

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

3.Playing FSG is certainly not "lol point and click no skill izi pizi tank dead" but instead actually requires lots of teamwork both within FSG and between the other elements

So does a cas vortex.  Especially if it's a jet or a 2 seater CAS helo.
 

 

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

for example using the MAAWS requires taking the correct type and number of rounds for the expected resistance, finding a suitable firing position which offers a good view of the target without endangering teammates, causing collateral damage or killing yourself with back blasts

Same goes for vortex?  (Except the backblast)

Only vortex has an extra dimension to think about because threads can not only come from front left right and behind but also bellow and above.
 

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

The team then has to range the target with adjustments for conditions and elevations, use the correct round [weather it needs HEDP or HEAT etc.] and hit first time and inflict enough damage to avoid the target vehicle getting away or killing you or your teammates.

In a 2 seater cas heli, same.  With a jet, same only with a (stand in) JTAC on the ground.  And very similar with single seater attack helos but yes a tad less.

 

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

all meanwhile watching for other targets and following commands orders.

Jets fly a heck of a lot faster than infantry walks up on you.  And if one fires a missle at you you've got a split second to save the entire airframe.  

All while following commands orders.
 

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

there are multiple occasions when Johnson or others have required to make very difficult shots to stop the target from killing the entire team including ranges exceeding the optimal ranges and reaching up to 1200m. 

I believe the max ranging of the cobras gun is somewhere around 3000 meters.  At times we have to engage at 4000 meters out.

 

4 hours ago, Adshield said:

my final opinion is that the 'issue' presented isn't as a result of the role but it is as a result of some occasional incidents with players. FSG has been present on EU3 since the first stages of Gauntlet, and possibly in patrol ops, in different forms [e.g. MAT,HAT,MMG]with no 'issues' until now.

MAT has caused a lot of issues in the past.  MMG too.  

[Adshield]

6 hours ago, Stanhope said:

To quote you:

"Oh well i'm just gonna kill myself then, again." (3-4 inaudible words) "Every single day. Oh no you can't have fun in any way shape or form."

This was also a one off case and still shouldn't be used against the role of FSG as it is not due to the role but the decision of the player. I could have been in vortex and you could then say that vortex should be removed if i disconnected instead of re-slotting into alpha. A thing that has to be remembered who ever is in command cant force someone to play if they don't want to.

6 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Except when that MAAWS is used to clear buildings by blowing them up.  Which has happend in the past.

the use of the MAAWS on EU3 is primarily to destroy vehicles not buildings, If we use the MAAWS against infantry alpha gets very annoyed so we don't unless specifically told to which is exceedingly rare.

6 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Say there are 10 players. 

Case 1 the mission is close: you can put 1 vortex in a jet and drive to the AO.  You can put 2 vortexes in an apache/cobra and drive there.  You can put 1 vortex in a venom/little bird/wildcat/... and drive there.  You can put 1 vortex in an attack helo or in a jet and have the other do reinserts.  
You can make due with 1 vortex in this case.
Case 2 the mission is not within driving distance:  you'll have to have 1 vortex on transport.  You can now either put 2 additional pilots in a apache/cobra.  You can also put 1 additional vortex in a jet or attack helo.  Or you can do inserts with a wildcat.  Meaning the transport vortex doubles as CAS.

 

So no, a 3 man FSG team would not serve the same purpose as they for starters lack the firepower of any of the attack helos and jets.  Secondly FSG doesn't have any transport capability.  Vortex can have both cas and transport capabilities.  Thirdly a vortex can be anywhere within the AO in a matter of seconds regardless of the airframe.  (presume that just as FSG they were in the AO to start with.) Fourthly FSG cannot give the same intel as a vortex can because they don't have a birdseye view of the AO.

1. With only 10 players alpha isn't fully filled so more than 1 pilot isn't allowed.

2. Enemy aircraft is rare and FSG can take Stingers if requested by command.

3. FSG can have transport ability with the vehicles such as the Strykers being usable by FSG which some can carry troops

4. When stationed on a hillside FSG can offer the same Intel as vortex, with NV and thermal tools being available which they are.

6 hours ago, Stanhope said:

So does a cas vortex.  Especially if it's a jet or a 2 seater CAS helo.

Guided ATGMs from the attach helicopters are the "lol point and click no skill izi pizi tank dead"  that you apparently don't like.

6 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Only vortex has an extra dimension to think about because threads can not only come from front left right and behind but also bellow and above.

so does any element as if they are in a buildings 1st floor or on a hill they can both be attacked from beneath from enemy troops and from above from enemy aircraft or troops further up the hill.

 

7 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Jets fly a heck of a lot faster than infantry walks up on you.  And if one fires a missle at you you've got a split second to save the entire airframe.  

All while following commands orders.

bullets travel faster than running or jets or helicopters so dodging them is difficult, you actuallt have to look for incoming missiles as well, instead of hearing a beeper go off in the cabin notifying you of a missile lock and the requirement to use flares, [your get out of jail free card, as you could say]. if you don't concentrate while on the ground you could be surrounded with no escape however CAS can go up or down and away from contact. If you have a split second to react in aircraft at high altitude then you aren't paying enough attention or are too low altitude.

7 hours ago, Stanhope said:

MAT has caused a lot of issues in the past.  MMG too.

It isn't the role of MAT or MMG causing the 'issue' its either a lack of communication or player action. If you have an issue with how a playing is conducting their role then talk to them and they may see a good reason to do it differently, instead of trying to remove a valuable asset which they used at the time.

Its like taking away all of the biscuits from everybody because one person dunked it in their coffee and you didn't like it.

yet again its the players actions you are quoting to remove the role they used at the time.

[Stanhope]

11 minutes ago, Adshield said:

1. With only 10 players alpha isn't fully filled so more than 1 pilot isn't allowed.

Unless ASL or whoever is in command authorizes it. 

 

11 minutes ago, Adshield said:

2. Enemy aircraft is rare and FSG can take Stingers if requested by command.

So wait here you do know that command can authorize you to break rules (like say FSG can only carry 1 weapon system/team) but in point 1 you don't?
 

11 minutes ago, Adshield said:

Case 2 the mission is not within driving distance

11 minutes ago, Adshield said:

3. FSG can have transport ability with the vehicles such as the Strykers being usable by FSG which some can carry troops

Not always no.  Same goes for vortex tho.
 

11 minutes ago, Adshield said:

4. When stationed on a hillside FSG can offer the same Intel as vortex, with NV and thermal tools being available which they are.

The view from ontop of a hill can be obstructed by another hill or buildings.  Vortex can perfectly reposition to the other side of the AO within seconds.
 

12 minutes ago, Adshield said:

Guided ATGMs from the attach helicopters are the "lol point and click no skill izi pizi tank dead"  that you apparently don't like.

I have no problem with them?

It almost seems like you have a problem with a CAS vortex.  I was just listing how similar vortex and FSG can be in some cases.
 

13 minutes ago, Adshield said:

It isn't the role of MAT or MMG causing the 'issue' its either a lack of communication or player action. If you have an issue with how a playing is conducting their role then talk to them and they may see a good reason to do it differently, instead of trying to remove a valuable asset which they used at the time.

But we can go without those valuable assets so there is no real issue in removing them.  Except that it punishes the players who tend to abuse them.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Ryko]

Guys, please agree to disagree. You're both bringing up equally valid points but I don't think you're going to convince each other.

 

One point I'd like to underscore:

 

Quote

Put simply I would much rather have fun playing a different game, such as Skyrim, than not have fun on Arma after being forced to do something i don't enjoy.

 

This is absolutely valid.

[Noah_Hero]

Even though I am not a big fan of FSG (probably because I am shit at it) I think it is definitly fun for me to play in there as assitant/loader from time to time and I guess I´d miss it for this. Also I as well don´t think that the concept of FSG is the problem but rather the situations when players abuse FSG.

So yeah I´d guess the better solution would be to just keep an extra eye open to check if FSG is used properly. If people don´t use it properly: tell them. If they don´t change their behaviour: I am sure an AWE mod can be found to handle the situation.

 

And to the point about people disconnecting when they can´t play as FSG: I also dc when I joined the server and the only roles available are Medic (I guess I am not very good at this as well) and LAT (Yeah I am shit with every AT)...so I don´t see a single problem with people alt+f4ing when they don´t get the roles they want.

[LEO]

On 31.10.2017 at 6:18 PM, LEO said:

i think this approach is rather lopsided when it comes to how the teams are gone be used. So I suggest that you instead have a squad setup like this.

ASL

Alpha squad lead

Intel operative

Weapons specialist (allow him to use bolt-action rifles and mawws and mortars)

And a weapons assistant

And let A1/2 remain the way they where.

TL

AR

ENGI

LAT

MEDIC

This will make the squad balanced so the alpha teams can be used interchangeably instead of the current system where one team is extremely heavy on AT and the odder team has the only engineer.

 

PS.

+ that the squad leader has better control on the heavy weapons players and dispatch them accordingly

 

just rann this settup for this evening and it worked like a charm. we had 3 guys in asl and 4 in A1 and it worked coridnation was good the weapons spec was always within shuting distance +it was a pleasent experiance squad leading. GG and good evening

[Minipily]

40 minutes ago, LEO said:

just rann this settup for this evening and it worked like a charm. we had 3 guys in asl and 4 in A1 and it worked coridnation was good the weapons spec was always within shuting distance +it was a pleasent experiance squad leading. GG and good evening

Indeed, worked a charm I thought.