Split: Cluster Munitions

[BenjaminHL]

Although @Amentes and @S0zi0p4th already started to out line some rules against the use of cluster munitions I do believe that they have there place and instead of being banned I believe they should instead be highly regulated. The only bomb I have a real problem with is the cbu-89 as it will cuase havoc even if used correctly. All the others serve a good purpose.

 

The cbu-105 could be used to destroy an artillery position for example, that was very well concluded and dispersed over a large area. 

 

Other cbu and agm types like the agm-154a could be used to eliminate large enemy counter attacks or destroy heavily fortified positions.

 

The server already has rules which restrict the engagement of ground targets from the air and when ground and air commanders follow these rules and look out for friendlies there is no reason that these weapons can't be used safely and in a way that the gameplay is fun for all. And just like any other rule on server, any not safe or appropriate usage of the weapons will be enforced by the staff. 

 

Two side notes as well. Cluster munitions can be used by ASL via his artillery options already and as far as I know there is no concrete way to stop the usage and loading of cluster bombs. So in my mind the best way to stop abuse of these weapons is education about how to use them and when, not ban them. 

 

Just my thoughts,

Ben

[Amentes]

I've been lead to believe that the primary reason for a potential ban on cluster munitions is the real-world ban on such weapons.

While only one of our currently available factions - the UK - has actually signed this convention, it is in effect for NATO operations.

The CBUs would certainly feature on a list of most devastating weapons available, though the thermobaric BLU-118 warhead also ranks high. 

However, the nature of a CBU might have a higher impact on server performance, which could also be a factor in a decision to ban them.

[Miczils]

Even tho the cluster ammunition convention is there, I just want to point out that many countries have the weapon in their arsenal and constantly upgrade it. And NATO coalition has quite a few times used those weapons in Iraq and Afghanistan. Specially during the first stages of operations Iraqi freedom where wild weasel F-16's were using the Cbu's to engage AAA emplacements. I've spoken with quite a lot of Wild Weasels and Cas pilots in Shephard AB, and the only weapon that coalition pilots weren't allowed to carry and use was the cluster mine dispensers.

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using a phone app that is really irritating because it constantly advertises itself.

 

 

[LEO]

2 hours ago, Amentes said:

I've been lead to believe that the primary reason for a potential ban on cluster munitions is the real-world ban on such weapons.

While only one of our currently available factions - the UK - has actually signed this convention, it is in effect for NATO operations.

The CBUs would certainly feature on a list of most devastating weapons available,

 

mine if i add this here?

 

the reason for the real world ban on clustermunitions is that that the (bomblets) had a nasty habit of malfuntioning becoming landmines due to prodoctuion defects (or intended altering of the munitions) and that the cluster munitions was not always maped properly.

Witch made them a B*** to remove, also the constant threat of the munitions randomly exbloding in your face it just adds to the funn factor. (not realy)

and in some cases the cluster boms where mistaken for aid packs

WARNING real life photo of what undetonated cluster munitions can do (strongly advice to be over 16 to see )

Spoiler

 

[D34TH]

• It is estimated that there are 500,000 survivors of accidents caused by landmines, cluster munitions and other explosive remnants of war. In addition, millions of people live under the threat of those weapons, sometimes decades after conflict.
• According to the 2012 Cluster Munition Monitor report, 94 percent of registered casualties are civilians and 40 percent are children
• One cluster bomb contains hundreds of bomblets (or submunitions) and typically scatters them across an area the size of two to four football fields
• Bomblets are small, often the size of a 'D' battery or a tennis ball and have a failure rate of up to 30 percent; unexploded bomblets become de facto landmines
• More than 70 countries stockpiled over one billion submunitions in 2012 
• The United States stockpile contains at least 730 million submunitions
• 34 countries are known to have produced more than 210 types of cluster munitions, 17 of which are suspected of still producing in 2012 
• Cluster bombs impede economic development, restrict access to water and deprive children of safe access to education
• There were 40 countries and territories affected by the presence of unexploded munitions as of 2012
• Unexploded bomblets were responsible for nearly 10% of U.S. fatalities in the Gulf War
• The United States dropped 19 million in Cambodia, 70 million in Vietnam and 208 million in Laos
• The U.S. executed more than 580,000 bombing missions over Laos, dropping, on average, an entire planeload of bombs every eight minutes, around the clock, for nine years.
• The most cluster contaminated areas are in Afghanistan, Cambodia, Iraq, Laos, Kosovo and Vietnam.

 

*****************************************

Army 2016: Russia to complete trials of cluster bomb

Nikolai Novichkov, Moscow and Neil Gibson, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly

12 September 2016

 

Russia's Bazalt, a subsidiary of the TekhMash Concern, is to complete state trials of its latest PBK-500U Drel (Drill) 500 kg-class universal gliding cluster bomb in 2016, according to TekhMash's director general, Sergei Rusakov.

"We are planning to complete them before the year end," Rusakov told IHS Jane's at this month's Army 2016 defence exhibition. He added that the PBK-500U Drel can be launched by day and night in all weather conditions and in contested areas. "An aircraft that drops the bomb can stay at [a] safe distance, as the Drel has a long range," he said.

The PBK-500U is designed to attack targets such as armoured vehicles, land-based radars, and air defence command posts. The bomb has a length of 3,100 mm, a diameter of 450 mm, a combat weight of 540 kg, a maximum glide range of 30 km, and incorporates 15 SPBE-K submunitions.

An aircraft can launch the bomb from 14,000 m, Rusakov added.

[Miczils]

 

Thank you for defending the cause Leo and D3ATH but I think we can all say we have derailed the topic, specially that it is meant to be a guide, not a discussion of whether cluster bombs are bad for civilians. In the end were playing a game and I think we can all agree the AWE community commits war crimes quite often. Therefore I'd suggest a moderator to move those to a different topic or remove those posts, not because I disagree with them, just that I think the talk here should mostly be about the guide and it's making, not whether the usage of ammunition that the said mod offers, comes with a great moral problems. Also as cruel as it sounds, the US did not sign the cluster munition agreement, and is happily using this kind of bombs, therefore I don't see a reason to ban the usage of it on the server.

 

 

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using a phone app that is really irritating because it constantly advertises itself.

 

Edit: Moved to general AWE board for continued discourse. Keep it civil and enjoy! ~Skull

Edited July 23, 2017 by SkullCollector
Split and moved to AWE Discussion

[BenjaminHL]

First, thanks @SkullCollector for splitting this topic, didn't even know it could be done. Second on a personal note: 

 

This last spring break I took a trip to SE Asia and when in Cambodia, one of the poorest and most heavily mined countries in the region, I not only had a chance to go to a land mine museum but I also met a victim at the museum. Despite all of the historical and awe inspiring things I learned and saw while in Cambodia going to this museum and meeting this man made me think the most. The man was old and he really spoke no English and his injury obviously happened a while ago. The only thing I coupd think to say to him was that I was sorry, and despite him not speaking English he knew what I was trying to say and acknolleged my intentions. The reason I said what I did is that most likely he was injured by a mined that a US solider laid or dropped, so I felt some responsibility even though it wasn't my choice or anything I could have changed. 

 

The reason I mention this is to show what these weapons do, they are indiscriminate. I also mention this story to show the real life impact, but also how they are used in warfare. I want to distinguish the real world from the fantisty land we play in every day and say how we should always put gameplay first and have fun but not take lightly the subject matter despite our digital reality. Don't ban the bombs, as we can show the player base how to use them within the rules and unlike in real life they will go off every time. 

 

Thanks for listening to story time and I wrote this on my phone so excuse the more numerous than usual gramtical mistakes,

 

Ben 

[JANXOL]

The thing about war in general is that it is absolute hell, but also makes good material for video games.

39 minutes ago, BenjaminHL said:

 

 

The reason I mention this is to show what these weapons do, they are indiscriminate. I also mention this story to show the real life impact, but also how they are used in warfare. I want to distinguish the real world from the fantisty land we play in every day and say how we should always put gameplay first and have fun but not take lightly the subject matter despite our digital reality. Don't ban the bombs, as we can show the player base how to use them within the rules and unlike in real life they will go off every time.

 

 

I agree completely on this. In my opinion, the only legitimate reason for banning the bombs would be performance-related.
As far as immersion and gameplay goes, I believe they should be accessible to all factions that aren't part of the CCM.