Balance / Nerf the Jets

[TheScar]

Hello,

long time no read from my side and i wasnt even considering posting here in the future but todays events changed my opinion ...

Its about the jets,especially the "DLC" WASP (which spawns on Carrier regulary every 30min).

 

As familiar player of I+A you may know my (hate-)relation to jets in particular but dont get me wrong in the first place.

Jets have a role in playing a support role to assist ground forces achieving objectives and goals eaiser/a bit less stressfull.

That totally alright about if the pilot of the jet "acknowledges" his support role and does so on a "regular basis".

Sadly,this doesnt play out most of the times.

We saw pilots camping the jets spawns (to be first),take them for unrequested air raids all over Altis.

This is what in particular annoys me the most.

The ability for the jets to be ANYWHERE on the island in minutes,speed advantage renders enemy AA useless 90% of times and they rearm in minutes and be back in the air almost instant.

 

I might give you a insight of the event that made me post this (read the spoiler+check the picture):

Spoiler

I came to EU1# just 5min ago and was about to prepare my usual setup,checking the scoreboard regulary (for several reasons),seeing this:

 

 

By reading chat i seen StarScream say he´s been playing since 3AM this day,so by playtime this might seem a legit thing to pull of (2% of players).

But i m quite sure he s been whoring that WASP since he came online.

Now,just 10min on the server,i m reading in chat in this time about 5times the quote >> "CAS ready,laser up" // "lase for CAS" // "AO needs CAS" and similar.

In 10minutes.

 

Whats the point in having AT slots,tank crews,APC crews and whatever in this game when a single WASP can dominate the mission so easily.

We might even never leave base again !

Take the Anti Air battery mission for example - i seen it countless of times the AA gets taken out by either the jet or the UAV in seconds/minutes with no threat to them at all.

If the ZSUs can deal em that sad why even have the AA mission actually in?

 

Actually,i m speechless since that thing (the jet/UAVtools) got added and even more in particular since BI tweaked the jet capabilities.

In this condition yet it´s a silly and gamebreaking move.

ARMA is about putting work in a mission (generalisation) - achieving goals the easy way is neither rewarding nor thrilling to none of (the more) experienced users.

Or when was the last time you told a m8 about that thrilling CAS-Air raid you witnessed while being boot on the ground with nothing to care about as only infantry is your only threat ?

Oh,not to forget:

The same goes for the new UAVtools !

 

 

 

 

In short - i vouch for several things to make jets/UAV tools better or everyone:

 

• raise (re)spawn timer of WASP and UAV tools (to 1h at best)
• raise service time (to min 15min)
• consider cut´ing jet/UAV  count actual (1 WASP - 1 Buzzard AA - 1 Greyhawk - 1 of those new things sorry,dont recall its actual name)
• enforce a "maximum use time" of jets (limit it to 1 user for 2h,then apply a 2h wait time)
• thin out chance of side reward to be jet/UAVtool
• change setup of AA battery to that new AAtruck to guarantee a solid AA threat by it

 

 

 

I´ll end it here for now,i usually wanted to play ARMA and not post a essay about the goddamn jet (users)

Thougts ?

 

[Stanhope]

So seeing how the new I&A update has been out for a day or 2 now, and to get back to the original post:

 

On 5-7-2017 at 2:32 PM, TheScar said:

raise (re)spawn timer of WASP and UAV tools (to 1h at best)

Wasp has been raised from 30 minutes to 45 minutes.  UCAV to, don't beat me up if i'm wrong here but i believe it was, 15 minutes.  Greyhawks have stayed unchanged.
 

On 5-7-2017 at 2:32 PM, TheScar said:

raise service time (to min 15min)

Service time for helis has stayed unchanged.  For UAVs it has doubled to nearly 5 minutes if i'm not mistaken.  For jets it's been pulled up to 10 minutes.  (I know the ingame message still says 5, don't shoot me i forgot to change it).  On top of this we've also replaced the hemtts on the carrier by an air service pad with the just mentioned timers.
 

On 5-7-2017 at 2:32 PM, TheScar said:

consider cut´ing jet/UAV  count actual (1 WASP - 1 Buzzard AA - 1 Greyhawk - 1 of those new things sorry,dont recall its actual name)

Due to not everyone having the jets DLC and thus not being able to operate the UCAV we've opted out on removing one greyhawk.  However the GBUs have been removed from the black wasp.
 

On 5-7-2017 at 2:32 PM, TheScar said:

enforce a "maximum use time" of jets (limit it to 1 user for 2h,then apply a 2h wait time)

This is very hard to track and enforce hence we opted for removing the GBUs from the black wasp.

 

On 5-7-2017 at 2:32 PM, TheScar said:

thin out chance of side reward to be jet/UAVtool

It's currently not been changed as we feel that the effects of the latest change might not have been properly observed yet.  But if people still feel like it should be changed over the course of the next week let us know. 
 

On 5-7-2017 at 2:32 PM, TheScar said:

change setup of AA battery to that new AAtruck to guarantee a solid AA threat by it

Base AA has been changed to one of the new AAA turrets.  Carrier AA has been added and it contains at least one of each new AA turret.  
The prio AA objective has also been changed to contain 3x AA assets.  Out of these 3 one will always be a tigris, the other 2 are randomly picked out of: tigris or one of the new turrets.


If any other questions remain feel free to ask them here or in this topic.  

 

[Stanhope]

A few general pointers before i get into the specifics:

• We're aware that the current service station on the carrier is too fast.  This will be changed in the next update.
• We can't for example just cut one of the greyhawks from the list because people that do not have the jets DLC will not be able to use the UCAV sentinel.
• We appreciate any and all feedback and constructive criticism 
   

2 hours ago, TheScar said:

raise (re)spawn timer of WASP and UAV tools (to 1h at best)

Wasp has a respawn timer of 30 minutes, the UCAV sentinel has a respawn timer of 10 minutes.  We'll discuss internally if these numbers will be changed.
 

2 hours ago, TheScar said:

raise service time (to min 15min)

The service station on the carrier will be said to just over 5 minutes for planes, almost 1 minute for the UAVs and also almost 1 minute for helis. This will all happen in the next update. We'll also discuss internally if these numbers will be changed.

 

2 hours ago, TheScar said:

consider cut´ing jet/UAV  count actual (1 WASP - 1 Buzzard AA - 1 Greyhawk - 1 of those new things sorry,dont recall its actual name)

We have to keep in mind that not all people have all DLCs so by removing 1 of the greyhawks some UAV ops will only have 1 UAV available to them.  We will also discuss this internally.

 

2 hours ago, TheScar said:

thin out chance of side reward to be jet/UAVtool

There are 95 rewards the side mission randomly picks from when giving a reward.

5 are jets,  22 are helis (16 attack, 6 transport),  7 are UAV related (3 actual UAVs, 4 are of those new turrets mounted to hemtts),  8 are MBTs,  10 are IFVs, 4 are APCs, 4 are cheetahs, 9 are striders and 26 are other cars (like the mortar mounted to an off road, a qilin, ...)

So in total that's 28.4% for a rewards for pilots, 7.4% for a reward for the UAV op and 64.2% chance for a reward for infantry.  
Seeing how the pilots and UAV op combined account for 10% of player slots, we'll discuss internally whether these values should be changed.
 

2 hours ago, TheScar said:

change setup of AA battery to that new AAtruck to guarantee a solid AA threat by it

McKillen has actually made this and suggested it here.  It will be implemented in one of the upcoming versions although it might not be the next one.
 

2 hours ago, TheScar said:

If the ZSUs can deal em that sad why even have the AA mission actually in?

The script that is running on those ZSUs seems to be broken since the jets DLC.  It is on my todo list to figure out why and more importantly how to fix it.

 

And to finish this off i'd like to point out that the jet is a support asset.  If you see a pilot rape an AO without infantry requesting anything please make a member of staff aware so we can take action.

Stan

[Jason.]

Agreed it is very OP, and it seems little effort was made on balancing it since it takes about 10 seconds to repair/refuel/rearm and doesn't take too long to respawn either. Strange decisions considering the (far inferior) buzzard is only gained from an fob and takes 5 mins to rearm.

 

My idea would be switching the roles of the wasp and buzzard so that the wasp can get a purely AA loadout and the buzzard a CAS loadout.

 

Or could just be removed from I&A/only be a side reward.

[Noah_Hero]

First of all: even though that I am basically never on EU1/EU2/EU4 I can totally see your point @TheScar and I am totally on your side that jets are too powerfull in I&A from what I´ve seen. I mean if it would be that cool for everyone if Vortex just finishes every mission on his own we wouldn´t have those restrictions for exactly this situation on AWE.

 

For balancing I could see this working:

• You restrict the UAV-OP to only have Darters/Stompers (would benefit gameplay in various aspects: he would do his job of spotting stuff more often, he could not just laser designate and kill everything on his own with his Greyhawk and if he wants to kill things he would have to use a Stomper wich means he would either drive a long way or he would be airlifted but in both cases it would take time making him more caring about his drone => he would not take unneccessary risks wich would also nerf him a bit.)
• You limit the amounts of Jets to like only a single one. (If you want to go further you could even do it like: There is no jet at all until the first FOB has been deployed => it would make AT guys very happy in the first part of the mission and encourage people to deploy FOBs. After the first FOB has been deployed there would be one jet available; Also you could then do it like: after the last FOB there becomes a second Jet available)
• And increasing the Air threat, service time and respawn timer is definitly also a good idea because so far when playing with @Amentes for example he had no problems at all destroying basically everything I designated for him and was always back in action super fast when he had to rearm...And we don´t want to get him bored...

[fir_nev]

1 hour ago, TheScar said:

We saw pilots camping the jets spawns (to be first)

 

Chronic behaviour after the JETS DLC.

 

1 hour ago, TheScar said:

Whats the point in having AT slots,tank crews,APC crews and whatever in this game when a single WASP can dominate the mission so easily.

We might even never leave base again !

 

@IOnceWasATeddy and I were en route to a side mission and it got taken out when we were only 3/4 there.

 

1 hour ago, TheScar said:

1 of those new things sorry,dont recall its actual name

 

UCAV Sentinel?

 

1 hour ago, TheScar said:

change setup of AA battery to that new AAtruck to guarantee a solid AA threat by it

 

There is the new AA truck?

[Xwatt]

Here's how I see it.

 

I've had many conversations about the role of the wasp with many people since the introductory of the Jets DLC.  The role of a CAS jet should be a SUPPORT role. Meaning that the pilot should only fire on request and should be on standby, scouting targets. Sadly this hasn't been been the case. I have seen pilots utilise the black wasp incorrectly, taking it upon themselves the fire without request and 'One manning' missions spoiling the role for those on the ground.

 

Face it, it's a public sever. No matter how hard you try an enforce the Black Wasp as a support vehicle, you will constantly see people taking it upon themselves to fire. There will always be a poor execution on a public server of support roles. It is something that requires communication and coordination to be effective in any scenario. Invade and Annex for me has always been better off without the CAS jets as they are not needed in order to be effective and getting the mission done. The player count is usually high enough that the fire power of jets such as the Black Wasp are not needed.

 

I also feel the Jet DLC has put too much power in the hands of the pilot. the new system allows the pilot to lock and fire without the need for people to lase targets as the pilot can do this as it is in his power, allowing him to engage every target that he can see.

 

Personally I feel the Black Wasp should not spawn on the carrier. I feel it has too much unnecessary power that is not needed 80% of the time. Instead it should be limited to a side reward or a FOB vehicle as that way it can be utilised effectively, as players don't need to have access to a CAS jet that permanently spawns at the carrier that they have 24/7 access to if it hasn't been destroyed

 

My action points are:

 

• Limit the Black Wasp to side rewards or to a FOB. That way it can still be utilised effectively in I&A but then players do not have access to it whenever they feel, they must work for it, this makes sense as I feel a vehicle with such firepower should be worked for.
•  
• Replace The Black Wasp for the AA buzzard, this can replace the Black Wasp at the carrier, and I feel a pilot who is skilled has access to the tools needed to eradicate enemy air such as Shikras and Neophrons, while not ruining the fight for the players on the ground.
•  
• If somehow you feel the AA Buzzard is 'underpowered' replace it for the Gryphon, it doesn't have all the fancy parts of a Black wasp but it still has more than enough power to be effective at its role, and should be able to eliminate enemy air and few ground targets, as such hefty power that the Black Wasp has is not needed to be effective.

The comment of 'The AA buzzard is a air to air while the Black Wasp is air to ground' may come up but that's my point. I don't see the need for an air to ground jet to be accessible all the time, an AA jet should be more than enough to eradicate issues that players complain about, enemy jets, and a vehicle with such firepower like The Black wasp should be worked for, and reduced to a FOB or to a side reward.

[TheScar]

8 hours ago, Stanhope said:

 

• We're aware that the current service station on the carrier is too fast.  This will be changed in the next update.
• We can't for example just cut one of the greyhawks from the list because people that do not have the jets DLC will not be able to use the UCAV sentinel.
• We appreciate any and all feedback and constructive criticism 
   

Wasp has a respawn timer of 30 minutes, the UCAV sentinel has a respawn timer of 10 minutes.  We'll discuss internally if these numbers will be changed.
 

The service station on the carrier will be said to just over 5 minutes for planes, almost 1 minute for the UAVs and also almost 1 minute for helis. This will all happen in the next update. We'll also discuss internally if these numbers will be changed.

 

We have to keep in mind that not all people have all DLCs so by removing 1 of the greyhawks some UAV ops will only have 1 UAV available to them.  We will also discuss this internally.

 

There are 95 rewards the side mission randomly picks from when giving a reward.

5 are jets,  22 are helis (16 attack, 6 transport),  7 are UAV related (3 actual UAVs, 4 are of those new turrets mounted to hemtts),  8 are MBTs,  10 are IFVs, 4 are APCs, 4 are cheetahs, 9 are striders and 26 are other cars (like the mortar mounted to an off road, a qilin, ...)

So in total that's 28.4% for a rewards for pilots, 7.4% for a reward for the UAV op and 64.2% chance for a reward for infantry.  
Seeing how the pilots and UAV op combined account for 10% of player slots, we'll discuss internally whether these values should be changed.
 

McKillen has actually made this and suggested it here.  It will be implemented in one of the upcoming versions although it might not be the next one.
 

The script that is running on those ZSUs seems to be broken since the jets DLC.  It is on my todo list to figure out why and more importantly how to fix it.
 

And to finish this off i'd like to point out that the jet is a support asset.  If you see a pilot rape an AO without infantry requesting anything please make a member of staff aware so we can take action.

Stan

 

I´ ve used color to mark with what i agree/disagree on.

imo the service for planes and UAVs (maybe only raise Sentinel only here) need to be raised most definatly.

Pilots/UAVops using that tools need to take care of em just like any other unit "should" take care of their tools.

That breaks down to basically use em wisely and not treat em like "it´ll respawn in xx amount of time" anyway.

Which i know is much to ask for a server like EU1#.

Í´ll respond later to this particular issue on Xwatt´s reply.

Last thing to your response Stan,about the side reward percentage.

I rely to simple math making the issue more obvious:

60 players = 100%

5 player pilots = 12% that get a reward chance of 28,4% = 5,7% per pilot

55 player inf = 88% that get a reward chance of 64,2% = 1,16% per player

See my point?

I could live quite well with pilots getting same chance as the UAVop (7,4%)

Thats a count i guess both sides could live with and we ll see how that works out in gameplay experience.

Apart from the fact pilots contribute a minimal amount in actually clearing side missions. (generalisation)

 

 

 

 

 

9 hours ago, Jason. said:

My idea would be switching the roles of the wasp and buzzard so that the wasp can get a purely AA loadout and the buzzard a CAS loadout.

Or could just be removed from I&A/only be a side reward.

 

And thats the (one of) the main purposes of this thread,to exchange opinions as different straws,different flaws.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, Noah_Hero said:

@TheScar I mean if it would be that cool for everyone if Vortex just finishes every mission on his own we wouldn´t have those restrictions for exactly this situation on AWE.

 

For balancing I could see this working:

• You restrict the UAV-OP to only have Darters/Stompers (would benefit gameplay in various aspects: he would do his job of spotting stuff more often, he could not just laser designate and kill everything on his own with his Greyhawk and if he wants to kill things he would have to use a Stomper wich means he would either drive a long way or he would be airlifted but in both cases it would take time making him more caring about his drone => he would not take unneccessary risks wich would also nerf him a bit.)
• You limit the amounts of Jets to like only a single one. (If you want to go further you could even do it like: There is no jet at all until the first FOB has been deployed => it would make AT guys very happy in the first part of the mission and encourage people to deploy FOBs. After the first FOB has been deployed there would be one jet available; Also you could then do it like: after the last FOB there becomes a second Jet available)
• And increasing the Air threat, service time and respawn timer is definitly also a good idea because so far when playing with @Amentes for example he had no problems at all destroying basically everything I designated for him and was always back in action super fast when he had to rearm...And we don´t want to get him bored...

 

THat certain behaviour has become a regular routine on EU1#.

Its way out of hand.

 

I disagree on limiting the UAVop only to a Darter/Stomper as that would render em useless and would break one of the foundings the mission is build in.

Greyhawk(s) need to be,i prefer decresaing the amount of tools (by respawn timer - by mission edit) as mentioned in OP.

I agree totally on the rest from your response.

 

 

 

 

8 hours ago, fir_nev said:

 

Chronic behaviour after the JETS DLC.

@IOnceWasATeddy and I were en route to a side mission and it got taken out when we were only 3/4 there.

 

 

UCAV Sentinel?

 

 

There is the new AA truck?

 

Yea,why would i be the only one noticing that

Cheers for the name of that Stealth Bomber thing.

Spoiler for picture HMTT AA truck (it connects to carrier and/or base AA defense and is mobile deployable < not tested):

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

7 hours ago, Xwatt said:

Here's how I see it.

 

I've had many conversations about the role of the wasp with many people since the introductory of the Jets DLC.  The role of a CAS jet should be a SUPPORT role. Meaning that the pilot should only fire on request and should be on standby, scouting targets. Sadly this hasn't been been the case. I have seen pilots utilise the black wasp incorrectly, taking it upon themselves the fire without request and 'One manning' missions spoiling the role for those on the ground.

 

Face it, it's a public sever. No matter how hard you try an enforce the Black Wasp as a support vehicle, you will constantly see people taking it upon themselves to fire. There will always be a poor execution on a public server of support roles. It is something that requires communication and coordination to be effective in any scenario. Invade and Annex for me has always been better off without the CAS jets as they are not needed in order to be effective and getting the mission done. The player count is usually high enough that the fire power of jets such as the Black Wasp are not needed.

 

I also feel the Jet DLC has put too much power in the hands of the pilot. the new system allows the pilot to lock and fire without the need for people to lase targets as the pilot can do this as it is in his power, allowing him to engage every target that he can see.

 

Personally I feel the Black Wasp should not spawn on the carrier. I feel it has too much unnecessary power that is not needed 80% of the time. Instead it should be limited to a side reward or a FOB vehicle as that way it can be utilised effectively, as players don't need to have access to a CAS jet that permanently spawns at the carrier that they have 24/7 access to if it hasn't been destroyed

 

My action points are:

 

• Limit the Black Wasp to side rewards or to a FOB. That way it can still be utilised effectively in I&A but then players do not have access to it whenever they feel, they must work for it, this makes sense as I feel a vehicle with such firepower should be worked for.
•  
• Replace The Black Wasp for the AA buzzard, this can replace the Black Wasp at the carrier, and I feel a pilot who is skilled has access to the tools needed to eradicate enemy air such as Shikras and Neophrons, while not ruining the fight for the players on the ground.
•  
• If somehow you feel the AA Buzzard is 'underpowered' replace it for the Gryphon, it doesn't have all the fancy parts of a Black wasp but it still has more than enough power to be effective at its role, and should be able to eliminate enemy air and few ground targets, as such hefty power that the Black Wasp has is not needed to be effective.

The comment of 'The AA buzzard is a air to air while the Black Wasp is air to ground' may come up but that's my point. I don't see the need for an air to ground jet to be accessible all the time, an AA jet should be more than enough to eradicate issues that players complain about, enemy jets, and a vehicle with such firepower like The Black wasp should be worked for, and reduced to a FOB or to a side reward.

 

I m not going to much into your post as i mostly made my point clear in previous responses of mine above.

And i agree with most of your statements.

Just that 1 thing ...

The fact its a public server does equal to not everything going as planned by mission designer or similar.

Thats just the way it is on a public beginner and above server.

But just that warrants a decent mission layout as we both know AHOY doesnt have the manpower/time/same opinion on this matter.

And thats why you "limit" the mayhem by a well adapted basic setup (locations/base assets/transportation of any sort/etc.)

Then let it run for 1 week,see if it needs t o be tweaked (either way),adapt accordingly,run it for another week,rinse repeat.

You get the princip.

I got several ideas up my sleeve to improve a bit with little effort needed,i just dont feel like any of my "contributions" or ideas are welcome in this (changing) community (see signature).

In the end,i m just to hurt in my honor to do so.

 

[fir_nev]

9 minutes ago, TheScar said:

Spoiler for picture HMTT AA truck (it connects to carrier and/or base AA defense and is mobile deployable < not tested):

  Hide contents

 

I am sold! We should put all our CSAT defence budget into this one!

[Stanhope]

Alright so we've discussed some stuff internally and we're gonna change a few things.  I cannot, at this moment, openly share what's going to change as that's up to the outreach team to do. What i will say tho is that some values have been changed,  some stuff has been removed and other stuff has been added. And some vehicles loadouts have been tweaked.  Some of this sooner than originally planned.

And to reply to a few things:

 

13 minutes ago, TheScar said:

I rely to simple math making the issue more obvious:

60 players = 100%

5 player pilots = 12% that get a reward chance of 28,4% = 5,7% per pilot

55 player inf = 88% that get a reward chance of 64,2% = 1,16% per player

See my point?

Yes i do see the point.  However, if used correctly, air assets also benefit people on the ground and the other way around for certain ground rewards (like the cheetah).  I'm personally always open for ideas for new side mission rewards.  For example those AA hemtts fir_nev posted a screenshot of are an idea of @Cryo, there is a hellcat with scalpels instead of DARs in there as well, that was an idea (and creation) of @McKillen. 
So if anyone has an idea or even better a working SM reward feel free to PM it to me, i highly appreciate it and if it's a sensible reward it'll certainly be put in.
 

19 minutes ago, TheScar said:

imo the service for planes and UAVs (maybe only raise Sentinel only here) need to be raised most definatly.

As said in the beginning, values have been changed.  That's all i can share at this moment.

 

21 minutes ago, TheScar said:

Spoiler for picture HMTT AA truck (it connects to carrier and/or base AA defense and is mobile deployable < not tested):

Yes it is drivable.  It's also a real killer.  You do not want to face that and especially not the triple A variant of that hemtt (Praetorian instead of spartan turret).

 

7 hours ago, Xwatt said:

Replace The Black Wasp for the AA buzzard, this can replace the Black Wasp at the carrier, and I feel a pilot who is skilled has access to the tools needed to eradicate enemy air such as Shikras and Neophrons, while not ruining the fight for the players on the ground.

Problem with this is that the buzzard cannot land on the carrier.  Which we put in on popular demand.  Also enemy air assets spawned as a result of the radio tower being up are: neophron, Shikra (stealth), normal Shikra, gryphon.  With a chance of respectively 2//6, 1/6, 1/6, 2/6.

 

7 hours ago, Xwatt said:

Limit the Black Wasp to side rewards or to a FOB. That way it can still be utilised effectively in I&A but then players do not have access to it whenever they feel, they must work for it, this makes sense as I feel a vehicle with such firepower should be worked for.

We gave opfor more powerful air assets (shikra and gryphon) which, as i'm sure @TheScar will verify, can easily outrun and/or flare a SAM.  So we thought i'd be fair to also give BLUFOR some more powerful air assets.
 

7 hours ago, Xwatt said:

If somehow you feel the AA Buzzard is 'underpowered' replace it for the Gryphon, it doesn't have all the fancy parts of a Black wasp but it still has more than enough power to be effective at its role, and should be able to eliminate enemy air and few ground targets, as such hefty power that the Black Wasp has is not needed to be effective.

Again the problem is that it cannot land on the carrier.

But as said earlier, the loadout of certain vehicles will be tweaked.

[fir_nev]

12 hours ago, Stanhope said:

AA hemtts fir_nev posted a screenshot of are an idea of @Cryo

 

Um... Posted by @TheScar.

 

Mine is request for HEMTT Medical to be able to revive.

 

12 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Problem with this is that the buzzard cannot land on the carrier.

 

12 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Again the problem is that it cannot land on the carrier.

 

They can land at FOB Martian (provided it gets unlocked), if they are skilled enough. Landing at FOB Guardian will be too easy.

[Stanhope]

2 minutes ago, fir_nev said:

Um... Posted by @TheScar.

in my defence it was 2 in the morning 
 

2 minutes ago, fir_nev said:

They can land at FOB Martian (provided it gets unlocked), if they are skilled enough. Landing at FOB Guardian will be too easy.

True but why would we have the carrier then?  We put it in on popular demand and gave a tool to go along with it.

But as i said in my previous post:
I cannot, at this moment, openly share what's going to change as that's up to the outreach team to do. What i will say tho is that some values have been changed,  some stuff has been removed and other stuff has been added. And some vehicles loadouts have been tweaked.  

[fir_nev]

12 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

True but why would we have the carrier then?  We put it in on popular demand and gave a tool to go along with it.

 

Understood.

 

Suggestion: Place USS Freedom on the opposite side of the map and have the teleport function taken away. We will then see how willing a pilot is if he dies and want to fly in a Wasp again. Have the rearm/refuel trucks located at a makeshift runway; we can try making the straight tarmac road at Terminal or NW of Almyra be a runway instead.

 

Pros:

1. Turn off for pilots who want to hog the Wasp

 

Cons:

1. Lazy pilots will tend to steal when the flying pilot is AFK
2. Jet might become more of a hassle than a support for the infantry

 

12 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

But as i said in my previous post:
I cannot, at this moment, openly share what's going to change as that's up to the outreach team to do. What i will say tho is that some values have been changed,  some stuff has been removed and other stuff has been added. And some vehicles loadouts have been tweaked.

 

Understood.

[Stanhope]

1 hour ago, fir_nev said:

Suggestion: Place USS Freedom on the opposite side of the map and have the teleport function taken away. We will then see how willing a pilot is if he dies and want to fly in a Wasp again. Have the rearm/refuel trucks located at a makeshift runway; we can try making the straight tarmac road at Terminal or NW of Almyra be a runway instead.

The problem with this is that we'd lose 1 pilot and 1 heli for the time that pilot is flying over there.  

[Xwatt]

@Stanhope is it a must that it has to spawn on the carrier? personally I don't see the need for the Carrier as to me, its all just aesthetics, a jet can take off on a runway, it shouldn't be restricted to what can - and what can't land on the carrier.

[Stanhope]

2 minutes ago, Xwatt said:

@Stanhope is it a must that it has to spawn on the carrier? 

No it doesn't have to be there.  But it sure looks pretty.

Also stuff has been changed in I&A in the next version, if it's still an issue after the update we'll change ever more stuff.

[Theronas]

On 7/5/2017 at 6:33 PM, Xwatt said:

Here's how I see it.

 

I've had many conversations about the role of the wasp with many people since the introductory of the Jets DLC.  The role of a CAS jet should be a SUPPORT role. Meaning that the pilot should only fire on request and should be on standby, scouting targets. Sadly this hasn't been been the case. I have seen pilots utilise the black wasp incorrectly, taking it upon themselves the fire without request and 'One manning' missions spoiling the role for those on the ground.

 

 

Hello Everyone.

I think that this quote (above) hits the nail on the head!

 

A more simple and elegant solution would be to actually create  specific rules that apply for jet pilots. Sure, it will take a bit for the rule to get known and utilized, but in the long run it would work (see how the rules work for heli pilots).

 

Any form of CAS should be standby and only be used on request. If this is not the case, kick/ban the pilot. The CAS should only be used on a specific requested target. The pilot and gunner should not be allowed to pick their own targets (with the exception of enemy air ofc).

 

A request like this should just come in side chat, as in: "Request CAS on enemy MBT, located at 143576 from North to South. Target is being lazed."

 

Once that  has been requested, the CAS pilot is allowed to take off and eliminate said target. After the target is down, the CAS returns to base, or if requested they continue, they have to be announced/requested in side chat.

Now to the issue of having 1 pilot slot that sits on standby, meaning that only 4 other slots are available.... create a pilot slot ONLY for jets. Simple really, if someone wants/enjoys to play a role where he sits mostly on standby and is active only upon request, that's his problem/fancy. That way the classic pilot slots will not be affected, there will be no camping (since its a slot-based solution).

 

Now before some of you start with the argument (its a public server, which is why it won't work yak yak yak), it DOES work, on a PUBLIC server. I have seen other I&A public servers that have exactly this solution implemented, and it works like a charm.

All it takes is 2 messages in side chat (request & confirmation) and a pilot willing to play that role in this manner. 

 

IF we see jets flying, attacking targets without a specific request (enemy air exempted), that pilot should leave the slot, kick, ban, however you wish to deal with rule ignorance. Like I mentioned above, it will take a while for this rule to become known and people to find out, but since you are all able to enforce so many other rules, this should not be an additional hassle. That way, there is no need to NERF stuff. 

 

I am one of the people who hate nerfs in general. Instead of nerfing something, might as well remove it totally, but stop with the nerfing as it is really annoying. I have never heard of a fighter jet for example that does not have air-to-ground missiles, and needs a separate Laze for it to do it's job. If it's too OP, then don't put it in in the first place.

But to get back on topic, also based on the amount of different jets (AA jet only, WASP, etc) you would have to find the right balance in slots.

This would also mean to adjust the re-arm and re--fuel times accordingly. There would be no need for 15 mins of re-arm or re-fuel, since that asset will operate in a more controlled environment (rules), or keep it for realism effect (this is not a formula 1 pit-stop either  ).

 

If you would like to see this solution in action, send me a pm (AW STAFF ONLY) so i can link them to an I&A server which has this solution implemented (I don't want to spam any other server in forums which is why i say staff only and only in PM). 

 

I would also like to add that this solution is the fastest/easiest method, which requires the least amount of work compared to many suggestions that have been proposed in this thread.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Regards & whole lotta love,
Theronas.

 

[Amentes]

It's always been a rule that Pilots aren't allowed to decimate the enemy on their own. Exactly how "decimate" gets interpreted is really down to whomever ends up reprimanding the pilots who do so.

 

Enforcement can be hard.

 

Imagine a scenario where a Pilot is on AW TeamSpeak in the EU#1 channel, along with - amongst others - someone who is calling in his bombs, even providing designation for him.

To people not on TeamSpeak, it would look like he was dropping bombs on his own, as they aren't privy to the communication going on on TeamSpeak.

 

Because of this, the AW Player Report system can't effectively be used to "catch" pilots who don't abide by this rule.

 

One possible solution to this would be to require all CAS requests be submitted via Side Channel text, though I can't imagine that would be a popular decision.

[Theronas]

15 minutes ago, Amentes said:

One possible solution to this would be to require all CAS requests be submitted via Side Channel text, though I can't imagine that would be a popular decision.

 

This is the only solution to my proposal. 

 

16 minutes ago, Amentes said:

Because of this, the AW Player Report system can't effectively be used to "catch" pilots who don't abide by this rule.

 

Why not? It works on all the other rules that you have implemented? Why not here?

One thing i have learned and seen here on AW is that in-game, not only the Staff looks out if a player does something they shouldn't, but so do most of the normal players. If someone does something they shouldn't, you can see side chat go berserk most of the time about people complaining. 

 

And like is said, once the rule gets a bit more known, you will see that not only the pilots need to be aware, but the players will be too, hence; Rule breakers will get recorded/reported/spotted/bitched at  

Oh, btw, i hope i am not... uhm.. being rude of offputting at how im writing this morning. Im just having a rough day at work at the moment  

Regards,
Theronas

 

[Amentes]

As I write above, the request for CAS could have been submitted on TS, or by some other method of communication that the player filing a report wouldn't be privy to, and there'd really be no way to check if a request was filed.

 

Add to that, there's no limit on how many requests one player can file in any given amount of time, so even if a pilot is literally killing every single thing in an AO, as long as a player is working with said pilot, no rule is being broken.

 

In such a scenario, I might take it upon myself to step in and ask them to leave something for the rest of you, but if such a scenario went down and it was reported after the fact, I don't see what could be done about it.

[Theronas]

4 minutes ago, Amentes said:

As I write above, the request for CAS could have been submitted on TS, or by some other method of communication that the player filing a report wouldn't be privy to, and there'd really be no way to check if a request was filed.

 

Make it a rule for the pilot to respond ONLY if the request has been made in side chat. If the pilot is requested via TS, then the pilot should tell the requester to make a formal request in side chat. (This works elsewhere, so no reason for it not to here).

 

5 minutes ago, Amentes said:

Add to that, there's no limit on how many requests one player can file in any given amount of time, so even if a pilot is literally killing every single thing in an AO, as long as a player is working with said pilot, no rule is being broken.

 

In such a scenario, I might take it upon myself to step in and ask them to leave something for the rest of you, but if such a scenario went down and it was reported after the fact, I don't see what could be done about it.

 

Alas i have no answer for this part, my proposal was a base idea. Maybe it can be used to build upon, and not viewed as a full fledged solution? I'm sure that something can be worked out along the lines of actually having a pilot be on standby until requested.

 

I mean, this is the only issue at hand:

• Don't pick own targets
• Don't engage unless legitimate request has been made.

As for enforcment... i can not be of too much help there since i am not a staff member, and do not have any form of control on this issue. Staff should figure this one out amongst themselves

 

Regards,

Theronas

[Stanhope]

1 hour ago, Theronas said:

Make it a rule for the pilot to respond ONLY if the request has been made in side chat. If the pilot is requested via TS, then the pilot should tell the requester to make a formal request in side chat.

Requests via Teamspeak go a lot faster.  And with the number of pilots that currently join TS we're not going to do anything to make it not worth being on TS.  If anyone has a problem with a pilot killing thing after thing in the AO without an apparent request he/she can, politely, ask said pilot who's requesting stuff for him.  If he fails to reply or gives a 'wrong' answer please by all means politely request him to stop.  If this doesn't work contact a member of staff.  

[Theronas]

28 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

Requests via Teamspeak go a lot faster.  And with the number of pilots that currently join TS we're not going to do anything to make it not worth being on TS.  If anyone has a problem with a pilot killing thing after thing in the AO without an apparent request he/she can, politely, ask said pilot who's requesting stuff for him.  If he fails to reply or gives a 'wrong' answer please by all means politely request him to stop.  If this doesn't work contact a member of staff.  

 

Wouldn't that mean that the requester (ground foot unit) would have to also be in TS? And wouldn't this make it harder for rule breakers to be noticed? (If you make a rule that pilots MUST be on TS, it could be a base for a solution), but many pilots don't even come on TS since its only advisable to be there, but not a must currently?

Of course a solution to accept both would be awesome, but most of the time I'm alone in the TS channel (and i'm not even a pilot, i just come in there to not feel lonely  )

Edited July 7, 2017 by Theronas
Addon

[Stanhope]

1 hour ago, Theronas said:

Wouldn't that mean that the requester (ground foot unit) would have to also be in TS? And wouldn't this make it harder for rule breakers to be noticed?

Yes and yes.

We don't want to make it too easy for us to enforce the rules   And admins will almost always be on TS, maybe not in the right channel but we can go to the right channel when/if needed.

[Theronas]

Awesome, so we seem to be getting closer to a basic idea. Let us see how this will continue

[fir_nev]

@Theronas I like Ur idea. If anything, people on the ground should ask on sidechat if anybody is making requests for verification purposes. All the more, regular forum-goers like us should be the ones on TS to monitor if the pilot is acting on his/her own.

 

If we do not hear anything on TS and sidechat, then, we will warn them about being reported for temporary/permanent ban. We need more of the red markers at USS Freedom saying that the jet is meant to be support only. Same goes for the Wipeout. I know somebody whom @TheScar hates can be in a jet for hours and hours.

 

As of 1600hrs (+8 GMT) today, players are asking for air support as Gryphon and Neophron are causing havoc to the transport pilots. I was happy that the Wasp has its wheels stuck on the carrier.