The removal of enemy weapons on death is a bad idea (in my opinion)

[LEO]

I have not seen any problem with players using Russian equipment or purposefully taking too little ammo to justify taking enemy weapons. And the option to use enemy weapons have saved my ass plenty of times when prolonged combat has eaten all of my ammo and imidiate resupply was not available or possible

 

or we have used our M72/at4s  and we have a tank that mat cannot deal with  then I usually borrow rpg 26s until M72s or at4s are available via ammo crates or someone brings a back pack with it.

 

And if it was such a huge issue that it was needed

 Why have I not heardabout this from the admins or the moderators or the playerbase In General?

[Ryko]

There are a couple of reasons for this change.  The first and foremost one is that AWE tries to accurately simulate a (relatively) modern battlefield.  In that reality, soldiers do not pick up weapons from the enemy and use them: yes, in a last resort situation, maybe. But in general you just don't pick up a weapon you're not familiar with, because you don't know how it shoots, you're not necessarily familiar with it, etc.  We can say that the operators in the world of Gauntlet are familiar with every weapon system out there, but it's just not common policy that you'd happily plunder the enemy kit on a "just in case" situation.

 

The second reason is gameplay: yes, it has been the case that certain players have "under-equipped" themselves so that they end up having no choice but to pick up an enemy weapon.  This often leads to the death of the squad in a number of ways: you're shooting an opfor weapon, so friendlies assume you're an enemy, you haven't notified friendlies that you're using / carrying opfor weapons so now your silhouette is different at a distance, and you just spent three minutes arming up and now the rest of your squad left you behind.

 

Both of these scenarios were encountered during today's mission: players actually ran low on ammunition and had to share magazines.  However, I also saw players loot the bodies of Zeus-placed enemies, packing RPGs and PKMs.  Not once did I hear a call-out that an enemy weapon had been taken.

 

If the upshot of this design choice is that players take more ammunition, or use Logi more often for supply drops, or exercise greater fire control, or act in a way where killing every single enemy is not necessarily the objective, then I would say that's a success.  If the great majority of the population sees it as a bad design choice, we can talk about modifying it.

 

It's possible you haven't heard about it from the admins, moderators or the player base in general because we don't advertise when players make questionable choices.

 

- Ryko

[hobnob11]

People taking less ammo on purpose is a very serious problem, but i dont think this is the solution. I would suggest a good old fashioned shouting at as a solution for that. when you have a AO thats set to nightmare and even with vortex on eagle you're surrounded by btr's and bmp's, that rpg would come in real handy.

[Teddy]

I also disagree because of the points already stated.

[BenjaminHL]

Sorry not on board with the change either. It often happens that you do enough killing that you and you friends just need more bullets and can't wait for a supply drop that is 15 minutes away. Also I can't personally remember ever being killed for taking an enemy's gun. People are people and make mistakes, but I feel the leadership need to have more faith in the player base to do the right thing. 

[Noah_Hero]

Actually I am totally on Rykos side. If you optimize your loadout a little bit by it's weight than you are perfectly able to carry 200 rounds with you without getting heavy AF. And 200 rounds should be enough for one AO unless you do spray&pray but that's something you shouldn't do anyway.

And if you run out of ammo probably a teammate will pass you a mag. If you run out of ammo and you are the only one in your squad using a BAF weapon then you should maybe pack in more mags or change your weapon. And if people run into a tank without AT4s: then next time better pack more.

 

5 hours ago, Ryko said:

AWE tries to accurately simulate a (relatively) modern battlefield.  In that reality, soldiers do not pick up weapons from the enemy and use them

And I think this is the most important point. If AWE tries to be as realistic as possible/necessary than this is a totally legit and necessary thing.

 

5 hours ago, Ryko said:

If the upshot of this design choice is that players take more ammunition, or use Logi more often for supply drops, or exercise greater fire control, or act in a way where killing every single enemy is not necessarily the objective, then I would say that's a success.

I also very much like that point because it forces people to rethink their firing-behavior and their loadouts. Also of course it would be great to see LOGI!

 

All in one: I like the change! Keep it!

 

 

Best regards

Noah

[Blue-958-]

Disagree with this change if only for the launchers, resupply isn't efficient enough to rely on it when there's a tank nearby that needs dealing with asap. And I too never saw a problem with people picking up enemy rifles, it happened so rarely anyway.

[Karate Pyjamas]

I'm not fond of the change too. We had a huge discussion a while back that 6+1 mag should be more than enough for any soldier, and that's basically what I always carry. Actually, I pack my vests in such a way that I can carry 6+1 magazines, NVG's, a shovel, 2 white smokes ,1 green, 1 red, 2 grenades 2+1 pistol mags, silencer and my vest comes out full. As an LAT I come in at around 29.38kg's and I find that more than enough to be effective. My BDU's are reserved for medical kit, IR strobe/IR grenade, earplugs and 1 or 2 misc stuff.

This loadout keeps up with the "not a 1 man army", "you can actually run when in a bad situation" and many of the other arguments thrown back then. Taking away the last resort isn't exactly fun either. Sometimes you don't have the manpower to get a resupply in, even sharing mags became a hassle. The only thing that could and did happen was getting shot because there was no way to suppress the enemy during the retreat.

Only as SL/TL I would carry a backpack with some extra magazines just to hand out to my group if needed. But I prefer not to take a backpack when it isn't needed.

[JaSmAn]

I disagree it is unrealistic:

 

In Time of Need

U.S. service members need to be prepared to win in battle despite overwhelming odds. Soldiers engaged in combat operations need to know how to correctly employ the foreign weapons when required, such as when a soldier’s own weapon is rendered inoperable or a lack of ammunition requires him to use the enemies’ weapons — not only to survive but to defeat the enemy.

Col. James Coffman was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross after a lengthy battle on Nov. 14, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq, while assigned as the senior adviser to the 1st Iraqi Special Police Commando Brigade. At one point, an enemy round shattered Coffman’s shooting hand and rendered his M4 rifle inoperable. After bandaging his hand, the colonel picked up AK-47s from commando casualties and fired them with his other hand until they ran out of ammunition.

Then-1st Lt. Brian Chontosh was awarded the Navy Cross for his actions while assigned to the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force in Iraq on March 25, 2003. When his unit came under fire from enemy fighters occupying a nearby trench, Chontosh began to clear the trenchline. After his own ammunition was depleted, he twice picked up discarded enemy rifles and engaged the enemy. When a Marine following him found an enemy RPG launcher, Chontosh used it to destroy yet another group of enemy soldiers. When his audacious attack ended, he had cleared more than 200 meters of the enemy trench, killing more than 20 enemy fighters and wounding several others.

 

Source: http://armedforcesjournal.com/know-thy-enemys-weapons/

 

My proposal would be SLs and TLs are responsible for making sure this is kept to an absolute minimum. I always ask my TL if I can pick up an enemy weapon. If he says no, I wait until I can rearm.  

[D34TH]

Bad idea imo

[Lost Bullet]

I don't carry minimum ammunition or go full retard into AOs but more than once I've reached a point where I was down to the last magazine.

As I usually use a weapon that doesn't take other's rounds (except for traditional 5.56 tracers) I've also ended in a situation where there wasn't extra ammo I could take from anyone. In those situations usually there are already friendlies down all around and I can take their ammo or standard 5.56 gun.

If by a miracle there aren't 5.56 rounds anywhere or "spare" 5.56 guns I would probably wait for a ressuply rather than take a AK from a enemy, but let me be clear, I'm saying probably no, but every situation is different and in a kill or die situation that choice is easy.

 

I understand why the change was made but sometimes its better to beat one than to punish everyone.

[Arkod]

Not sure why this change is needed at all, I just don't see an issue with this. I've never seen anyone under-prepare just to have an excuse to get an AK from an enemy.

 

Most of my loadouts come with 7-9 mags and most of the time it's enough to finish an AO. If I run out of ammo, there's usually someone who has spare mags, but if there are no spare mags, I'd rather have the option to get a weapon from an enemy and be combat effective than running with my pistol.

 

Target identification should be Uniform > Weapon. If you can see what weapon the target has, you certainly can see what uniform they're wearing. On top of that you can check their "behaviour" - players move VERY different compared to AI.

 

If someone gets team killed, chances are it wasn't because of their weapon, but because they were in the wrong place (alone - not with their team). 

[Ryko]

Okay, I'll roll this change back.  However, expect Zeus to single out players who play fast and loose with OPFOR gear.

[BenjaminHL]

@Ryko It has alway been that way when zeus is on. When players don't act or play like a team (in this case don't ask for ammo from teammates) zeus has always singled them out. But also thank you for taking the communities opinion and making the appropriate changes. 

[JaSmAn]

8 minutes ago, Ryko said:

Okay, I'll roll this change back.  However, expect Zeus to single out players who play fast and loose with OPFOR gear.

 

I would also add that TLs and SLs should make it a part of their briefing - no taking enemy weapons without approval. I will do that from now on.

[Noah_Hero]

3 minutes ago, JaSmAn said:

no taking enemy weapons without approval

That should always be the case. That is why it´s stated in rule Nr.8:

"Play your role.

• ...

• Use gear specific to your faction. If you're in the field and run out of ammunition, ask permission before picking up an enemy weapon."

[Ryko]

7 minutes ago, BenjaminHL said:

@Ryko It has alway been that way when zeus is on. When players don't act or play like a team (in this case don't ask for ammo from teammates) zeus has always singled them out.

 

I'm not sure that's always true, but I suppose it depends on the Zeus.

[LEO]

2 minutes ago, Ryko said:

Okay, I'll roll this change back.  However, expect Zeus to single out players who play fast and loose with OPFOR gear.

May I suggest a rule/procedure where you ask your team lead for permission before capturing weapons. And that the tl/sl will check with vortex (if the infantry requests permission) if he can Para drop a crate with equipment. Also another way to mitigate this problem with prepping a crate and how slow logistics can be is to make a crate preset which includes a few M4s a good amount of ammo  min 40Mags  and a few M72s and a sorted grenades smoke/frag

 

QRC

Quick resupply crate

[Noah_Hero]

Just now, LEO said:

rule/procedure where you ask your team lead for permission before capturing weapons

As I said:

2 minutes ago, Noah_Hero said:

That should always be the case. That is why it´s stated in rule Nr.8:

"Play your role.

• ...

• Use gear specific to your faction. If you're in the field and run out of ammunition, ask permission before picking up an enemy weapon."

 

So there is already a rule for that. Guys wtf you should know the rules

[JaSmAn]

4 minutes ago, Noah_Hero said:

That should always be the case. That is why it´s stated in rule Nr.8:

"Play your role.

• ...

• Use gear specific to your faction. If you're in the field and run out of ammunition, ask permission before picking up an enemy weapon."

 

Exactly what I mean, TLs remind your crew to FOLLOW THE RULES, damit.

 

[LEO]

7 minutes ago, Noah_Hero said:

As I said:

 

So there is already a rule for that. Guys wtf you should know the rules

the roles have changed to a degre sence i joined. also i am not that kind of a guy that always remembers everything and notes every change

 

also as a side note we ned to re add the rules in to the ts channels and some odder stuf after the ts channels got deleted

[Noah_Hero]

13 minutes ago, JaSmAn said:

Exactly what I mean, TLs remind your crew to FOLLOW THE RULES, damit.

Well normally you shouldn´t have to remind people of how the rules are but sadly you will always find people not following the rules or "interpreting" them...

 

11 minutes ago, LEO said:

the roles have changed to a degre sence i joined. also i am not that kind of a guy that always remembers everything and notes every change

That´s why I always open them up when I join AWE. So I can always look things up in case I am not sure anymore.

[Ryko]

Seeing as Vortex is usually sitting around before mission start, taking some time to load up a few ammo crates isn't a bad idea.

[Lost Bullet]

don't we have a aircraft that can also do paradrops (like the blackfish in vanilla)?

[Vlk]

Okay, I'll roll this change back.  However, expect Zeus to single out players who play fast and loose with OPFOR gear.

A Good reason to finally use lighting bolt function

 

 

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