Ahoy mortars?

[D34TH]

Why not replace the MMG squad with a mortar squad ... allow any autorifleman to take a mmg if desired, maybe increase autorifleman slots to 2 per team....  we would gain more indirect fire support, maybe even impromptu counter mortar amazing action and i think nobody would lose anything from this change ... ?

[Noah_Hero]

24 minutes ago, D34TH said:

allow any autorifleman to take a mmg

This is already possible.

24 minutes ago, D34TH said:

increase autorifleman slots to 2 per team

Not necessary because now we almost never have anyone in MMG (except you sometimes) and it works totally fine without AR-spam.

 

The general idea is kind of nice but even though I think also unnecessary because CAS is always available while support squads require a full Alpha and CAS is more accurate.

[Stanhope]

30 minutes ago, D34TH said:

we would gain more indirect fire support

 

If the AO isn't in a town and the crew of the mortar know what they are doing, agreed.  However AOs are often in towns, meaning that you can't just start shelling the place without mass destruction to civilian things and without mass civilian casualties.  On top of that is running a mortar not an easy task.  It's not like vanilla where you can just plug the data into a computer and start firing at will.  You actually need to know what you're doing to make your rounds land somewhere near the target.  And this takes time.  And to hit spot on you probably need a first round and adjust from there, which takes even more time.
Don't get me wrong i'd love to see mortars being used but compared to CAS helis/jets, HAT, MAT, ... they are just too slow.

Just my personal opinion.

[D34TH]

 @stanhope the bloody AI mortar teams seem to know what they are doing .... chasing us and making us run like horny rabbits ... 

[Stanhope]

AI knows what they are doing  (And they are basically aimbots.)

[BloodInTheSand]

5 minutes ago, D34TH said:

 @stanhope the bloody AI mortar teams seem to know what they are doing .... chasing us and making us run like horny rabbits ... 

You're not wrong there. The AI mortars are crazy accurate at times.

 

As for the rest I think this goes the same way as artillery. ASL already has indirect fire support, and with MAT and HAT mortars are far too slow and very much redundant.

[D34TH]

Well, when AI will get smarter, which i hope they will, HAT and stationary MAT squads will become primary targets and not have such a breeze of a gameplay... btw as soon as you fire even a bloody rpg in eu#1 the whole bloody AO seems to spot you and want to kill you ... there is a place in modern warfare for mortars inspite their limitations in accuracy imo (laser guided shells ...would solve that)

direct fire has a huge limitation too, you see them , they can see you ... ?

[Miczils]

16 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

AI knows what they are doing  (And they are basically aimbots.)

Honestly if we got a decent Fire Coordinator with a Vector 21 + Micro DAGR and a decent Mortar Gunner with a Micro DAGR, you can have 1m accuracy no problem. 
Last time i tried with some friends, with a perfect coordination scenario you can radio relay 10 digit target coords acquired throught Vector21 connected to MicroDAGR and get shells on a 1m square point in 20 seconds from the point of taking out the Vector 21 out of your backpack. Everything is possible if you really want it.

[Noah_Hero]

38 minutes ago, D34TH said:

when AI will get smarter, which i hope they will

AI can be setted to a way harder mode where they try to surround you, etc. But most likely the AI-level will be setted to normal. And especially when AI is on hard then a mortar is way too slow at firing accurate.

 

38 minutes ago, D34TH said:

HAT and stationary MAT squads will become primary targets

Well HAT can sit 2 km out of the AO on a hilltop wich will still make it hard for the AI to kill them when they are doing their job good. And if MAT is just stationary then the MAT guys aren´t doing their job very well since MAT is more like intended to be used together with all the other groundforces.

 

38 minutes ago, D34TH said:

laser guided shells ...would solve that

But this would also make the mortar OP because you can sit in base with the mortar and kill the whole AO while you aren´t in any kind of danger. CAS at least has the danger of AA-units.

 

29 minutes ago, Miczils said:

Honestly if we got a decent Fire Coordinator with a Vector 21 + Micro DAGR and a decent Mortar Gunner with a Micro DAGR, you can have 1m accuracy no problem. 

How about wind-deflection?

[D34TH]

@Noah_Hero the current HAT gameplay based on the AI sort of bug (brain damage ☺) of not recognizing hilltops as strategic locations (the high ground) worth controlling will end one day, while mortars would be a much more difficult target to find ... as they also are in real life 

[Noah_Hero]

Just now, D34TH said:

the current HAT gameplay based on the AI sort of bug (brain damage ☺) of not recognizing hilltops as strategic locations

And because of the fact that you can easily shoot at any target at more or less any distance because you have a clear view over everything.

 

1 minute ago, D34TH said:

while mortars would be a much more difficult target to find

Well, not for AI because AI always knows where you are. That´s how AI works.

 

But still a mortar would be either not that usefull because you can perform way better with CAS or it would be (with these laser-guided shells) OP because you can kill everything while being out of danger sitting at base => it will etiher take people away from more important slots and/or it will take away fun from the infantry combat that is the core-part of AWE and ARMA itself.

[D34TH]

They did put mortars in vanilla ARMA since day one, so it is not like this is somewhere outside the core of the spirit (which is growing over time and emergent as any free spirit should be imo: boats, underwater thingies, exotic maps , medical menus, tfar, rangetables, carriers...) ☺

[Noah_Hero]

Just now, D34TH said:

They put mortars in vanilla ARMA since day one, so it is not like this is somewhere outside the core of the spirit ... ☺

Of course it is not. It is there as support element.

The second part:

7 minutes ago, Noah_Hero said:

or it will take away fun from the infantry combat that is the core-part of AWE and ARMA itself.

is meant as the consequence from the mortar being OP with Guided shells because as said it can kill just everything. Of course an Apache can do the same but that´s the reason the apache isn´t always used and if it is used it has to wait for fire orders. Of course you could do the same for the mortar-team but these guys will then just be sitting in base while you can order your CAS to RTB and grab a transport for example and be usefull in another way. Also the CAS can perfectly provide Intel about enemy movement and call these to ground units and mark them on cTab.

 

It is not like I am saying the mortar is shit. I am just saying that there are better ways to fullfill the task and cover even more tasks than the mortar team could do.

[D34TH]

I agree a mortar team would not be some sort of queen of the battlefield nor the optimal way to do a task (except maybe " remotely" clearing a dismount point, hilltop or LZ , task which i understood has a bit of a history behind it in AWE) but it would be a fun addition and in keeping with the realism and spirit of the game.

On a broader note, any change has limitations and thus even logical grounds for resistance, but the dangers of a cemented status quo and what comes with it shouldn't be neglected imo

[Colsta]

1 hour ago, Miczils said:

Mortar Gunner with a Micro DAGR

 

In my experience as a mortar gunner, that job is very, very easy. It's the one calculating the shots who does all the heavy work.

[D34TH]

@colsta you just lose your hearing and start to tremble at 30 but the rest is easy ?... hmmm battle autrition damage over time now that would be something .... play HAT too many missions in a row and you start severe trembling unless you slot as a rifleman ... now thats an idea to hate ... :))

....

[Ryko]

1. ASL has access to virtual mortar support, so it's not like it doesn't exist at all in Gauntlet

2. We've historically placed mortars in the confines of the Logi squad, but until recently we haven't had enough players to mandate a Logi squad.  That said, IMO platoon command can authorize anyone to use mortars as dictated by the demands of the mission.  Just make sure you're following server rules.

3. AI mortars are carefully controlled by script rather than regular AI.  If this were not the case they would rain absolute hell down upon you.  As it stands now, they really only fire if you decide to camp in a location and snipe ... which is exactly why the mortars were introduced in the first place.  Also, mortars follow this script:

- range target with smoke (daytime) or flare (night time)

- fire initial shells

- become more accurate over time

So if you decide to stick it out through mortar fire, you will inevitably get wasted.  That said, the script isn't perfect.

[D34TH]

@ryko just a curiosity, an AI has to "spot" you to call/direct the mortar fire or is there another kind of trigger? 

[Lost Bullet]

14 minutes ago, D34TH said:

@ryko just a curiosity, an AI has to "spot" you to call/direct the mortar fire or is there another kind of trigger? 

OPFOR has to basically spot BLUFOR  3 times in the same spot (e.g. moved less than x meters in a defined period of time). Then mortars will hammer you.

[Ryko]

22 minutes ago, D34TH said:

@ryko just a curiosity, an AI has to "spot" you to call/direct the mortar fire or is there another kind of trigger? 

 

Mortars start unspawned. They will spawn if BLUFOR is detected by OPFOR, so if you're super sneaky, you won't see mortars. However Arma AI has a pretty godlike ability to detect you.

 

After that, they will only fire HE shells if they have accurately ranged you.

[Karate Pyjamas]

Shameless plug.

Anyway mortars can quickly become OP and you need a very good gridref from the commanding element calling it in. Mortar on a slant or tilt? You're screwed. I'm very much up for it, but it's very difficult to accurately and effectively use it. After firing you really need to keep good contact with the front line so they don't accidentaly march right into the splash zone. I'm more than happy to take a mortar team sometime and test it out. I've played a lot with the mortars in the editor, using the range calculator it actually works for the 3CB mortar now too, had to do a lot of experimenting to get the muzzle velocity right. It's still a tad wonky, but it gets the job done in a similar accuracy as the range card. The spread however, is huge, no matter what you use to range it.

That said, the 3CB mortar is a blast *pun intended* to use as it's moderately realistic in it's operation and the amount of ammo you can carry and how you carry it.

[D34TH]

just for (60mm) fun

 

[BlastaMasta]

I'd really like to see this in action on AWE once as I've already proposed artillery/indirect fire support on my own thread about it

We could do a few test rounds with some mortarts on AWE or maybe even get a bit of training by more experienced mortar operators like @Karate Pyjamas. Even if it's just for fun! I'd definitly be down for that!

[D34TH]

I am all in for training if Karate Pyjamas finds the time and desire for it . After all, knowing how to do it right is the fun and more important to me than actually using it to kill some inf specifically in Gauntlet (+ off topic,  i did a tennis ball trajectory simulation excel so i enjoyed seeing one in the Karate's HOW TO Mortars topic)

[D34TH]

@Ryko maybe its a stupid idea but does the mortar script start at gauntlet start and keeps on running till all missions end?  if so wouldn't it be more resource efficient to start it for each AO at bluefor detection and stop it after each operation ends (so it doesn't run in between, as it doesn't need to, unlike the ambient AI) ?