Charlie as scout unit

[D34TH]

I believe that probability of survival of any type of unit depends (excluding planning) mainly and in this order on:

1 timely intel

2 distance to the enemy forces

3 cover

4 equipment (armor thickness, helmet etc)

5 a great medic (stanhope for ex

 

Therefore, taking into consideration the limited intel given in mission description and the fact that scouting role is now partially played by the hat/mat teams which have a different primary task ... i propose the designation of a max 2 men charlie team (Alpha 2-2 for ex) as a scout team.

 

mission:

1 get first to an overwatch near AO or other area of interest

2 remain stealthy , gather intel and communicate over long and short range radio

3 stay at overwatch until mission completion at the AO and help with evac if needed or redeploy to another area of interest for overwatch (hostage delivery area etc)

 

assets:

1 little bird (at their disposal for insertion/extraction, as an exception acting as "self-service" vortex for this purpose only)

2 any unarmed small vehicle

 

restrictions:

1 strict only fire when fired upon rule of engagement

2 no sniper/marksman allowed, the mission is strictly intel gathering and not killing enemies

 

perfect mission resolution:

1 reach AO overwatch before mission plan is defined (at least before other teams leave the base)

2 remain undetected over the entire span of the mission

3 gather and communicate timely/useful intel before alpha/bravo teams arrival to designated area of interest and during the mission

4 do not fire any bullets

 

i look forward to your views on this idea ... thx

[Stanhope]

14 minutes ago, D34TH said:

5 a great medic (stanhope for ex

i'm flattered

 

On topic again and my personal opinion as a player:

 

I like and dislike this.  If used correctly it can be really useful for ASL or Platco.  However i don't think a lot of players will like sitting on a hill just spotting stuff.  And fire when fired upon is not that strict of an ROE.  I'd give an ROE to break contact and retreat as soon as they start being engaged.  It also takes away some regular infantry slots.  Yes they are almost never used but still.

[D34TH]

no need to be, its the truth...

 

Break contact and retreat would be the logically correct ROE given their mission, i agree.

 

Just spotting and not shooting offers an exclusively intellectual pleasure and does not allow for the public display of the mouse skills and therefore yes, i don't think many would shoot at each other in TS for those slots, but, allowing for the use of an independent/ dedicated little bird for insertion and the fact that you would not need to wait for long periods at base for re-arming/planning and the other "stuff" could be an incentive for some ...

 

Taking away 2 slots from Charlie i don't think would be a real issue  99.99% of the time

[Noah_Hero]

It´s a nice idea but when you for example have a Plat CMD then these guys are getting more or less useless after the other units arrive at the AO because then the CMD itself will sit ontop of this hill and overwatch the AO and Vortex can also scout out a little bit. Also the need of scouting out the AO could cause increased waiting times at the base because people would have to wait until driving out because before these guys report no one knows what to expect at the AO and if people may should carry an additional launcher for example. Another point is that this scouting before the mission can and is already done by the UAV Operator what means that this will be a redundant unit with the only difference that the UAV-Operator also has GBUs that he can use what means that he probably is more usefull.

[D34TH]

i see your point but another pair of eyes from a different overwatch position is always useful even if Plat CMD is present, vortex can not do persistent scouting in all the missions if AA is present or if transport needs are intense and i am sure a max 2 men unit with a little bird or fast vehicle would get to the next mission long before the main force has gotten back to base and rearmed so they would not need to wait

[Ryko]

Thanks for your suggestion, D34TH.

 

I'm really hesitant to create special squads, because players tend to use them improperly.  For example there used to be a Clear team squad that quickly turned into the cool kids club.  The purpose of the squad was to "clear landing zones" as I recall but it was almost never used this way.

 

If command wants to allocate team members to perform special functions, such as scouting, they are free to do so.

[D34TH]

experience is always a tough teacher ... yes

[Tutvys]

Like the idea, let's Hope we will see this in gauntlet soon and we will see people acting properally in this squad.

[SiegeSix]

As Ryko said:

43 minutes ago, Ryko said:

If command wants to allocate team members to perform special functions, such as scouting, they are free to do so.

I'd personally want the guy in charge to change the "purpose" of a squad/team to do these functions rather then have a custom squad/team for this. 

 

[Karate Pyjamas]

The issues with naming such teams is that they are taken out of context. Clear teams and Scout teams always turned into "I sit on this hill 2.5km away from the ao and shoot at targets so far away I can't even properly ID or hit them."

[D34TH]

by this logic any rule can be broken and any role can be not properly played .... the assumption is that players are or can be made to respect the rules.... otherwise EU#3 makes no sense to begin with

 

[BloodInTheSand]

MAT and HAT, the latter especially due to thermals, work very well as scout units as their role is already to sit in an advantageous position and kill stuff from far out.

I feel that a scout team would be taken the wrong way. Putting fighting capable infantry at a distance where they're not much use isn't good.

As much as I love the idea of a scout team my real worry is that it'll just be a squad where regular players and friends go just to have a laugh - where we already have useful squads at that distance who can provide the same information. Feels almost redundant to me.

 

[Noah_Hero]

16 minutes ago, D34TH said:

by this logic any rule can be broken and any role can be not properly played

Rules mustn´t be broken at any time and nothing of the above said things justifys the breaking of rules. For example: of course Plat CMD can tell people to be Hammer if he is thinking that this would benefit the mission and if there are nearly enough players online to use Hammer. What justifies this: The sentence that says that common sense should be applied onto the rules. And of course it can happen that people don´t stick to the play your role rule but then you can either punish them over and over or you make adjustments like removing these roles that make people breake the rules and just solve the problem with a lot lesser effort and probably a way happier playerbase. Also if people don´t play their role as intended that probably means that the unit doesn´t fullfill a role that is fun enough by itself. Because of this I don´t think that it was wrong to remove these misused teams and don´t create new teams that´ll probably alse be misused.

 

5 minutes ago, BloodInTheSand said:

Feels almost redundant to me.

Definitly. Best example is the UAV Operator I think: he provides Intel before and while the mission is running but he is even better because he still can conduct strikes.

[BloodInTheSand]

21 minutes ago, Noah_Hero said:

Best example is the UAV Operator I think

UAV op is a rarely selected role but definitely.  This is exactly why the UAV op position exists.

[Miczils]

5 hours ago, Ryko said:

Thanks for your suggestion, D34TH.

 

I'm really hesitant to create special squads, because players tend to use them improperly.  For example there used to be a Clear team squad that quickly turned into the cool kids club.  The purpose of the squad was to "clear landing zones" as I recall but it was almost never used this way.

 

If command wants to allocate team members to perform special functions, such as scouting, they are free to do so.

Sadly truth, often "special" purpose squad cause problems becoming the special kids club's. 
I would be happy with a very little one, the idea of two people is really nice, i don't think they even need a special little-bird, just a prowler/buggy would allow for a decent recon unit. If used in the right way, by people knowing how to make use of CTAB, Vector 21 + MicroDagr, Laser Deg, Map Tools etc. 
In terms of weapons, fully disarming the squad would not be necessary, just allow for the use of very light, low caliber, weaponry and armor, leaving a loot of room for the maneuverability, quick movement - a proper light recon,  while decreasing the long-range fire possibilities as much as possible to discourage the problem presented by Karate.

 

1 hour ago, Karate Pyjamas said:

 "I sit on this hill 2.5km away from the ao and shoot at targets so far away I can't even properly ID or hit them."

 

With all those restrictions in place, a proper, mobile light-recon team could be assembled, allowing for a long-range target spotting, laser designating for Air Assets, and with the reduced weight (a light armored/no armor buggy, thin armor plating and a low-weight weaponry) the recon team could re-position by kilometres in the matter of minutes.

 

I myself would love to take part in those recon operations, the use of Vector 21+MicroDAGR would allow for 1m pinpoint precision of map markers of HVT's, Static MG's and other valuable map/position information. The all around light-weight equipment would force a very defensive/preservative, agility-dependent type of gameplay, forcing Recon to often re-position instead of engaging into a firefight and use the light weight as the main attribute.

 

[Noah_Hero]

52 minutes ago, Miczils said:

by people knowing how to make use of CTAB, Vector 21 + MicroDagr, Laser Deg, Map Tools etc.

I hope that everyone but maybe the completely new players knows how to use these ones

 

54 minutes ago, Miczils said:

I myself would love to take part in those recon operations

Me too but as I said I think this unit would be kind of redundant in it´s purpose and I don´t think it is worth inventing this because in my opinion this wouldn´t benefit the gameplay that much while having that high chance to horribly go wrong.

[D34TH]

can't go worse than when a kid's club gets into hat/mat or hammer though .....

 

[Amentes]

3 hours ago, BloodInTheSand said:

MAT and HAT, the latter especially due to thermals, work very well as scout units as their role is already to sit in an advantageous position and kill stuff from far out.

 

Just gonna point out, while HAT isn't well suited to close-range engagements against Armor; MAT can do a very good job at this, and I've personally been in many a situation, both as SL and as MAT, wherein I felt MAT would be much more effective in proximity to Alpha, than sitting on a hill.

 

MAT is very adaptable in this regard; always keep that in mind

[BloodInTheSand]

15 minutes ago, Amentes said:

 

Just gonna point out, while HAT isn't well suited to close-range engagements against Armor; MAT can do a very good job at this, and I've personally been in many a situation, both as SL and as MAT, wherein I felt MAT would be much more effective in proximity to Alpha, than sitting on a hill.

 

MAT is very adaptable in this regard; always keep that in mind

Most definitely. Had plenty of missions on Fallujah especially with mat moving alongside other groups. The extra guns and the power of the MAAWS made short work of anything that had the stones to get up close!

[Amentes]

It's not uncommon to see a team including me leave base weighing 40+, total load of at least 14 rockets. The weight does reduce mobility, but when you're only maneuvering behind the mainline Infantry of Alpha or Bravo, the staying power offsets it to great effect. It also stops you needing a car or a crate

[Stanhope]

11 minutes ago, Amentes said:

It's not uncommon to see a team including me leave base weighing 40+, total load of at least 14 rockets. The weight does reduce mobility, but when you're only maneuvering behind the mainline Infantry of Alpha or Bravo, the staying power offsets it to great effect. It also stops you needing a car or a crate

I remember having a (vanilla) bergen backpack completely filled with MAAWS ammo.  No stamina but plenty firepower. 

[Noah_Hero]

4 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

I remember having a (vanilla) bergen backpack completely filled with MAAWS ammo.  No stamina but plenty firepower. 

Same here. @Amentes gave me 6 rockets to carry

[Miczils]

2 hours ago, Amentes said:

 

Just gonna point out, while HAT isn't well suited to close-range engagements against Armor; MAT can do a very good job at this, and I've personally been in many a situation, both as SL and as MAT, wherein I felt MAT would be much more effective in proximity to Alpha, than sitting on a hill.

 

MAT is very adaptable in this regard; always keep that in mind

I love Alpha Team MAT'ting, honestly there's often no more than 2-3 armor targets at one AO - a skilled MAT team of two can easily take one, sometimes two op's with a back mounted bergen ammunition depot.
Way more fun than using a mat-humvee in my opinion.

[Ryko]

So I feel we're moving off topic here, and the original post has been discussed thoroughly.