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I&A Player vs Player + AI


Eagle-Eye

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Hey guys,

 

I know it's something that has popped up in the past (did a search on several keywords, but couldn't find any hits, though?) so I'm just revisiting the topic of making I&A set up to have players fight against players. Could be a future update of current I&A3 on EU #1 or #2, a new development on a separate server alongside the regular I&A, something for AWE or entirely dismissed. The powers that be have final say. :)

 

So, first things first, why?

1) Main reason (every time probably) is very simply because AI can be really dumb sometimes, and you need a human brain to close that gap. E.g. if you're far enough or when AI are garrisoned in a building, AI will never react, despite being massacred. Also in CQB, AI have some serious shortcomings...

2) The entire idea behind I&A is that the island is controlled by an enemy force, but those forces are always restricted to just the AO circle, give or take a few 100m. With human players, they could be coming from and/or set up anywhere, including somewhere outside that circle. Keeps everyone on their toes. :)

 

 

The way I figure it could work (open for debate):

- It's not meant to become a pure PvP. The main focus remains on the BLUE side, but a limited amount of players will be able to join the RED side. E.g. with the current 60-player limit, we could have 45 - 50 BLUE players VS normal AI and 10 -15 RED players. RED's purpose would be to hold off the BLUE attack as long as possible, not to reconquer the island.

 

- The AO's can continue as they are now, basically, without any big changes.

 

- RED would get their own main operating base, obviously far away from the BLUE MOB and with equal base protection.

 

- As RED is meant to control the island, they should have a few locations to spawn across the map. These locations could be fixed (i.e. FOBs are always active, but initially used by RED, later taken over by BLUE), built into the AO or set up manually by RED players.

 

- Random (civilian) vehicles are spawned inside towns and cities, to provide alternative ways of transport. Regular civilians could be spawned as well, if server can manage, for IFF purposes.

 

- With a total of 10 - 15 human players, RED would consist of 2 pilots and regular infantry units. The rest of the AO is filled with AI.

 

- Because of limited amount of players on RED side, there would be no distinctive separation between roles and their associated gear/capabilities, except for pilots. Everyone else would theoretically be able to revive players / repair vehicles (if they brought the appropriate backpacks) while carrying any other kind of CSAT equipment. Weight limits would obviously still apply, and for reasons of fair play, viper outfits and thermal scopes remain prohibited.

 

- RED would have no access to mortars, because there already is the artillery that spawns every so often, but they would be able to deploy unarmed UAVs and MANPADs. At this point in time, I'm still thinking about whether all RED players should be allowed to function as UAV operator, or if that's something that should also be restricted to the pilot slots...

 

- RED receives rewards when BLUE fails a side mission.

 

 

Positives:

- Above all, the human brain that is capable of things the AI just can't begin to imagine.

- A bigger challenge, more thrill and a larger sense of achievement when going up against human players.

- Variety. With a single starting point, humans can create vastly more different outcomes than AI ever could. This also holds true for equipment. One time, humans could be commandeering a civilian vehicle to get to the AO, next time they could be bringing an armed Orca, another day they could lay down IEDs on suspected ingress routes, ...

- Constant reinforcements, adding the illusion that the enemy is really trying to maintain / take control over that AO.

 

Positive or negative, depending on point of view:

- IFF, especially with CSAT equipment rewards. At present, there's a chance that a side mission gives BLUE side a Gorgon, Kajman, ... Similarly, if not overhauled, RED side could receive a Marshall, Blackfoot, .... That makes friendly fire and destruction of a reward that has just been received a real risk, especially on public servers with no / little communication.

 

Negatives:

- Theoretically, both sides could attack the enemy's MOB, or position himself in such a way that they can shoot anyone the moment they leave the base protection zone. We can only hope that is not abused. When noticed it is, Admins and Spartans can take appropriate actions, though. (rule suggestion: do not come within 1 km from enemy MOB)

- If no / few BLUE players are online, RED players may have a boring time. They could just reconnect to BLUE, though.

- RED is basically meant to be a losing force. Though I'm fairly certain most will not mind at all, I'm sure some would rather not connect at all, than to connect as RED because all BLUE slots are taken.

 

 

Your turn now. :)

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Well I am all for a bit of player on player action (ooer!)

 

I would say this should be another server and should be Red Vs Blue only (no AAF etc) or potentially Red Vs AAF only, and no to any AI.

 

If this happens, whichever way, gear must be limited to the faction yes those rewards you mention and uniforms as well. Want to play dress up, go play I&A vanilla, otherwise you can wear and use what is part of your faction only. However guns picked up of corpses, or vehicles comandeered are fine, but otherwise they are not in the arsenal.

 

I think numbers could be the same per side, especially if the sides are Red (or Blue) vs AAF as the AAF have slightly less tech availble to them.

 

Both sides need a heavily armed base of operations to stop base raids and CAS bombings.

 

FOBs could be mobile variations, with a max of say 2-3 FOB vehicles at base that can be destroyed in the field and are on a respawn timer.

 

There are a lot of other ideas (and issues) but thats a few for now and yes I like this.

 

 

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No. (But I have a counteroffer)

 

That's my two cents right there. This won't work at all in the sense you're thinking @Eagle-Eye

 

Now, I don't mean to shoot the idea down harshly, but take it from a guy that does zeus work on a full time schedule. I've done this in the past, and only through VERY CAREFUL management does a PvP+E (Player Vs. player + Environment aka. AI) work. The zeus needs to make sure the enemy players are ABSOLUTLY CLEAR on their roles to do things, hence why even I do it so rarely. Applying that to a public server would be chaotic and I can assure you that it would be abused to hell. programming wise you'd also have to factor in different respawn points for CSAT at every main and side AO. Furthermore people come to I and A for casual ops. if they want PvP, they generally go somewhere else like king of the hill.

 

Now, let me break a few things down using zeus logic:
 

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 0:10 PM, Eagle-Eye said:

1) Main reason (every time probably) is very simply because AI can be really dumb sometimes, and you need a human brain to close that gap. E.g. if you're far enough or when AI are garrisoned in a building, AI will never react, despite being massacred. Also in CQB, AI have some serious shortcomings...

 

The AI will ALWAYS be dumb. Even with mods like VCOM and ASR_AI 3, the AI is trash, but a zeus can always do their best to adjust things. Granted, Achilles has many more tools for this, but with simple Ares, there are still things we can do here to improve the intelligence of the AI. If someone's sniping the AI from afar, call in a vehicle to come by the AI, remote it, then scan around with thermals and take pot shots at the sniper. If they don't react at all, shoot in front of them. if they really don't get it, kill them. If Ai are being dumb while their building is being breached, use the ungarrison command. trust me, it gets the players EVERY TIME, and I've been told that's one of the best things the players love to see when the AI do a small counterattack.

 

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 0:10 PM, Eagle-Eye said:

2) The entire idea behind I&A is that the island is controlled by an enemy force, but those forces are always restricted to just the AO circle, give or take a few 100m. With human players, they could be coming from and/or set up anywhere, including somewhere outside that circle. Keeps everyone on their toes.


If you really want to bypass the AO limits, just spawn in units at a player's flank (within reason, we want the players to win, remember? :P) or take a vehicle on a patrol route and maneuver it around. Personally, I love to take an armed Quilin, load it with a fireteam, then drive it around and order the fireteam to assault the players from a flank. it keeps them on their toes, and the chain gun from the Quilin at a range past 100 meters is a great weapon for suppression, with a very low chance of actually killing the player.

Now, let me tackle some other points here...
 

 

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 0:10 PM, Eagle-Eye said:

with the current 60-player limit, we could have 45 - 50 BLUE players VS normal AI and 10 -15 RED players.


You're going to want to increase the ratio significantly. I've done experiments with 40-60 players and, although it heavily depends on skill and communication, you generally want 8 Players to a single enemy player, so a ration here would be around 7-8 CSAT to 51-52 NATO. think about it. CSAT coordinating ambushes with explosives and grenades, using AA and AT to effectively take any armor and air out, they have a small group to keep themselves organized and comms clear, NATO gets WIPED if too many CSAT are on a team, regardless is NATO has a 3:1 force advantage. Seriously, the worst I've seen it is 4 CSAT players staying in a base STOMPING 50 FREAKING NATO PLAYERS FOR AN HOUR because their comms were on freaking point.

COUNTEROFFER:
I know Fabs and I have been talking about bringing back zeus days to Ahoyworld. We're still working on ideas but this could be one of the main themes we provide on those days. It would be interesting to see what Ahoyworld does with this gamemode...

 

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When I first read this I though "this would be very cool", imagining myself being part of a small, elite team of Russian special forces infiltrated behind enemy lines, causing all sorts of havoc, communicating and attacking and then disappearing!

And then I remembered... this is a public server, most people on there just want to run around like they are playing COD and have very little regard for any sort of organisation or basic concepts of infantry combat. Most of the time they are just fighting the urge to kill their own teammates! They will drive straight to the blue base and get a kick out of blowing up choppers waiting on pads or sniping people at spawn, ruining it for most.

So, sadly, and as much as I think the AI is almost useless and this is an exciting concept, I second what most people said. Leave it as Plaver vs. AI and develop another PvP server option.

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The thing is Eagle Eye hasn't said change I&A as it is, he's suggesting alternatives, with no predefined expectation barring a few ideas he has suggested.

 

and to quote "I second what most people said", only one person has commented in the negative before you :huh: (Scar doesn't count.... yet.)

 

I feel there is scope for a PVP mode on an AW server, but what that is? Well that's the discussion.

 

 

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I think the major problem is map size. Most players want to get on, shoot up some dudes, achieve some objectives, and that's good.  On Altis, if there is a BLUFOR base and an OPFOR base, they'll likely be on opposite sides of the map, and it will take forever for players to find each other.

 

On Stratis - maybe.  But at that point, we're probably better off playing something like EUTW.

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7 hours ago, JaSmAn said:

Yeah, I guess I read Scar's no-comment as negative ; )

 

But absolutly no to this fake press statement.

I was just sitting on work with a very miserable smartphone available to express my opinion on this (actually) very nice idea accordingly enough.

I recall a talk on a Domination version (back then WIP) for a TvT edition of it with 2 teams fighting over the island and having the AI as filler and allowing easier access to ressources (read=side rewards) before fighting vs the other team only.

Then there s the general problem in founding a dedicated playerbase for this mission/concept.

To keep it short,it didnt work out on A2 and it barely does on A3:

Team vs Team servers A2 (actual) 3 players / 4 servers

Team vs Team servers A3 (actual) 12 players/ 8 servers

This is far from judgement,i m just stating (again) obvious facts and neither the facts nor my opinion has changed much since that last talk i had about this almost 6-7 years ago.

And imo it might be to early to make a derivat mission of I+A 3.01 as it s (yet) not a solid mission (base) concept to work on.

Get me?

 

;)

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9 hours ago, TheScar said:

And imo it might be to early to make a derivat mission of I+A 3.01 as it s (yet) not a solid mission (base) concept to work on.

Get me?

 

;)

 I totally agree this is not the time to be splitting time away from teh development of I&A as it's own mission, there are enough teaks and changes requred there first.

 

This could be a labour of love for talented community mission makers, rather than the stalwart development team?

 

Also agree getting players in there can be a pain in the backside, so maybe it needs to start as something smaller to see if PVP catches on, and if i doesn't work, then little is lost.

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