Restructuring CAS

[Jason.]

Current situation:

For a long time now the Greyhawk UAVs have been the only CAS option available in I&A (excluding reward vehicles). 

I think that the guided bombs that the UAVs have are quite ideal for gameplay.

 

In theory UAVs are great, being able to take off/land, fly and even destroy targets by themselves.

However as many know, UAVs are a little... unreliable, meaning that they must be controlled manually for most tasks.

With two greyhawks in the sky the UAV operator won't have time for much else, like using darters.

 

Enemy CAS:

We currently have no way of dealing with enemy Neophrons aside from base AA (if available) or an AT player carrying an AA launcher (never).

We used to have an AA buzzard in I&A 2, but not anymore

This results in pilots and ground vehicles helplessly being destroyed by the enemy CAS.

Yes I know we get it at the FOB but that can take many hours to get, so is not a solution.

 

My idea:

Remove greyhawks as a default spawn, and add them to the side rewards list.

Add the buzzard CAS as a default spawn.

For info, the buzzard has 300 20mm cannon rounds, 2 ATGMs, 2 guided bombs, and 2 AA missiles.

 

My hope is that by having the buzzard we can keep the same CAS ability of the greyhawks, minus all the bugs associated with UAVs.

By having a buzzard pilot we also have a more reliable way of dealing with enemy CAS.

It would also mean that the UAV operator's new focus would be on using his darters much more effectively.

The UAV op can also now be the primary person who can lase targets for the CAS pilot (replacing the previously useless JTAC role).

 

Extra points:

In the near future when the update for dynamic loadouts on jets arrives, the buzzard's loadout can be completely customised, for example the 2 ATGMs could be switched for 2 more GBUs etc. 

I don't know if it would be necessary, but with this change a new pilot slot could be added, possibly just for jets/CAS?

 

Please discuss!

[Stanhope]

8 hours ago, Jason. said:

This results in pilots and ground vehicles helplessly being destroyed by the enemy CAS.

Ground vehicles, maybe but pilots aren't helpless.  A heli is way more maneuverable than a jet as long as the jet doesn't fire it's AA missiles (of which it only has 2 if i'm not mistaken) you can dodge its attacks rather easy.

 

8 hours ago, Jason. said:

minus all the bugs associated with UAVs.

Darters are more buggy than the greyhawks.  Sometimes the greyhawks indeed ignore every single thing you tell them to do but if you make them respawn that's usually fixed.

 

8 hours ago, Jason. said:

Add the buzzard CAS as a default spawn.

In the hands of a skillful pilot it can destroy most vehicles in an AO withing 15 minutes.  Simply use the ATGM to take out the tigresses, finish any stranglers off by dive-bombing them.  Rearm take out any other enemy armor and finish the ifrits/qilins off with the main gun.  And a laser is not really needed, i even find it harder to drop a GBU with a jet than with a UAV. 

 

Just my 2 cents, i really like the UAV op.

[Chutnut]

If there is a reward rework coming I don't really want to say much about new vehicles however I think jet Cas is a wee bit overpowered and should be a reward but I do agree in more anti-aircraft options.

[Aegis_RVIR]

I have an idea, make the cheetah a vehicle that normally spawns at base.

 

Problem solved, next problem please

[Jason.]

2 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Ground vehicles, maybe but pilots aren't helpless.  A heli is way more maneuverable than a jet as long as the jet doesn't fire it's AA missiles (of which it only has 2 if i'm not mistaken) you can dodge its attacks rather easy.

By helpless I mean that they have no way of fighting back, no way of defending themselves other than trying to avoid their attacks like you say.

Also I'm pretty sure the jets get infinite missiles.

 

I was going to make some points about balance, but I didn't think it was necessary, but it seems I was wrong!

The only part that I could consider OP about the buzzard is the ATGMs, since they can by fired at long range without any assistance from other players.

But that is why I mentioned that soon it will be possible to switch the ATGMs to another weapon, so think about it for the future, not just for right now.

 

2 hours ago, Stanhope said:

In the hands of a skillful pilot it can destroy most vehicles in an AO withing 15 minutes.  Simply use the ATGM to take out the tigresses, finish any stranglers off by dive-bombing them.  Rearm take out any other enemy armor and finish the ifrits/qilins off with the main gun.  And a laser is not really needed, i even find it harder to drop a GBU with a jet than with a UAV. 

I'm sorry but this is completely unrealistic.

If you're lucky you can take out 2 tigrises with your ATGMs (they won't always hit). But an AO will have more than 2 tigrises plus many AA squads.

If you try dive bombing an AO after taking out 2 tigrises you'll be dead before your bombs touch the ground.

As for taking out stuff with the cannon, I won't go into how suicidal it is, but it'll take about half a clip of your cannon rounds to destroy an ifrit, so not exactly huge potential.

 

Assuming the buzzard is armed with 4 GBUs, I don't see why that would be OP when we currently have two greyhawks with 2 GBUs each?

The buzzard is much more vulnerable to AA because it will be targeted at a much longer range, and it has half the number of flares.

The buzzard will spend more time out of action rearming, compared to how you can always have 1 greyhawk in the air ready for targets whilst the other is rearming.

The buzzard must rely on other players to lase targets (to be able to accurately and safely hit anything), whilst the greyhawks can self-designate targets, eliminating the need to work with the team.

 

I honestly think that the UAV op with two greyhawks and darters is far more OP than the buzzard.

 

@Cryo and what happens when the AO is the other side of the map?

[S0zi0p4th]

24 minutes ago, Cryo said:

I have an idea, make the cheetah a vehicle that normally spawns at base.

 

Problem solved, next problem please

And then people take the cheetha and use it as a IFV

[Stanhope]

24 minutes ago, Jason. said:

By helpless I mean that they have no way of fighting back

2x 2000 rounds in a minigun, helpless?  No way of fighting back?  No, it just requires some teamwork, skill and luck.  It might not be the best/safest/easiest way to take the jet down but it works.

 

26 minutes ago, Jason. said:

Also I'm pretty sure the jets get infinite missiles.

Could very well be, but i've noticed that it doesn't always uses it missiles.

 

26 minutes ago, Jason. said:

I'm sorry but this is completely unrealistic.

If you're lucky you can take out 2 tigrises with your ATGMs (they won't always hit). But an AO will have more than 2 tigrises plus many AA squads.

If you try dive bombing an AO after taking out 2 tigrises you'll be dead before your bombs touch the ground.

As for taking out stuff with the cannon, I won't go into how suicidal it is, but it'll take about half a clip of your cannon rounds to destroy an ifrit, so not exactly huge potential.

Aren't there like 3-4 tigrises in the AO?  Let's assume that 2 out of 4 are standing still, so use the ATGMs on the 2 driving around, come in from 3000m dive down, fire the atgms.  Very high hit chance like this because you reduce the amount of terrain that might be in the way.  Assuming you managed to take both tigrisses out you now only have 2 tigrisses left that are standing still, same here, climb to 3000m, dive towards the tigris, drop GBU at 2000, pull up and fly away.  Now go back to base rearm, repeat if needed and if you run out of tigrisses move on to the kamyshes.  When moving on to the ifrits/qilins/marids you can do so with guns but only if you fly over 300km/h to minimize the time AI have to get a lock with manpads. And you don't need to completely take them out at first, just disable them and move on to the next one. If you do get locked, pop flares, bank and dive.  Do try to shoot from as far away as possible and try to avoid overflying the AO if you're bellow 2000m. 
Ok the timeframe was maybe a bit unrealistic, but the buzzard can clear out all vehicles in the AO in less than half an hour. 

 

37 minutes ago, Jason. said:

The buzzard must rely on other players to lase targets (to be able to accurately and safely hit anything), whilst the greyhawks can self-designate targets, eliminating the need to work with the team.

I believe that a UAV bombdrop has to be requested by infantry.  The UAV op isn't allowed to drop without a specific request from infantry i believe.

 

 

[Jason.]

@Stanhope I strongly encourage you to try out your strategy in the editor, things play out very differently in practice.

 

I don't really see the point of your argument when you make no reference to the effectiveness to UAVs, which is the basis of mine.

Everything you're saying can be done easier with greyhawks, so what exactly is your point?

 

Also, it's fine to think that the ATGMs make it OP, but don't make that your reason to disagree with the whole idea.

 I've said twice already, the buzzard will soon be able to have it's armament customised, meaning the ATGM issue can be easily fixed.

 

21 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

I believe that a UAV bombdrop has to be requested by infantry.  The UAV op isn't allowed to drop without a specific request from infantry i believe.

A rule which is very rarely listened to or enforced. Also I see no reason why this same rule wouldn't apply to the buzzard.

[Lone]

The Dev teams, and my own opinions match that of stanhope, with the implementation of the points system (if it is approved) you will be able to purchase the buzzard, until then it is too powerful and prone to abuse to replace the greyhawk.

[Cebi]

From my experience flying against enemy Jets:

Enemy fires 2x AA missiles and then uses a rotary 30mm cannon. In past 2xAA missiles "respawned" after some time. I can't confirm that this is happening in I@A 3.1.

 

In my opinion, they are balanced right now. They are not particularly hard to avoid and add to gameplay for Vortex. Also, they encourage pilots to land troops on LZs that are near Radio Tower.

 

Never liked Buzzard much in I@A because of the tendency of cocky pilots to use it with dubious effectiveness. FF was also high with them if they suddenly felt like providing CAS with cannon is their sole purpose.

 

With Datalink and Sensor overhaul much of this discussion will soon be out of date. In the meantime, you can try dev branch and try to apply your suggestions with new features that we will soon get with free platform update coming with Jets DLC.

 

[Amentes]

Never seen an AI-Neophron shoot at airborne targets since 3,0.

 

Generally, they'll spawn in, go rocket the living daylights out of some over-camped hill, and then bugger off to de-spawn again.

 

IMHO, there's very little challenge to transport piloting currently. Only joker element is the rare out-of-place Tigris.

 

As a Pilot, I'd welcome the reintroduction of properly dangerous enemy Air.

 

Planes in 2 wasn't even dangerous, it was always the Kajman that got people

[Cebi]

@Amentes : I can confirm that in current version AI- Neophron chased my Huron several times unloading its 30mm at me. Which strangely made me quite happy :).

[Stanhope]

30 minutes ago, Amentes said:

Never seen an AI-Neophron shoot at airborne targets since 3,0.

I've been shot at by enemy jets quite a few times.  It's actually quite fun, as i can do something else then fly back and forth for a change.

[Amentes]

Sure that isn't a Spartan spicing it up for you?

[Stanhope]

Just now, Amentes said:

Sure that isn't a Spartan spicing it up for you?

I find it hard to believe that a spartan would fire a single missile at me when i've just left the pads.

[Jason.]

Please forget I ever mentioned ATGMs, just pretend the buzzard has only GBUs and AA missiles.

 

1 hour ago, Lone said:

it is too powerful and prone to abuse to replace the greyhawk.

Would you mind elaborating on that?

3 hours ago, Jason. said:

Assuming the buzzard is armed with 4 GBUs, I don't see why that would be OP when we currently have two greyhawks with 2 GBUs each?

The buzzard is much more vulnerable to AA because it will be targeted at a much longer range, and it has half the number of flares.

The buzzard will spend more time out of action rearming, compared to how you can always have 1 greyhawk in the air ready for targets whilst the other is rearming.

The buzzard must rely on other players to lase targets (to be able to accurately and safely hit anything), whilst the greyhawks can self-designate targets, eliminating the need to work with the team.

 

 

1 hour ago, Cebi said:

Never liked Buzzard much in I@A because of the tendency of cocky pilots to use it with dubious effectiveness. FF was also high with them if they suddenly felt like providing CAS with cannon is their sole purpose.

I know what you mean about pilots trying to use the shitty cannon for CAS, but I'm not so sure about FF, the benefit of it being weak is that it's pretty hard to TK with as well!

 

1 hour ago, Cebi said:

With Datalink and Sensor overhaul much of this discussion will soon be out of date. In the meantime, you can try dev branch and try to apply your suggestions with new features that we will soon get with free platform update coming with Jets DLC.

You mean like this?

14 hours ago, Jason. said:

In the near future when the update for dynamic loadouts on jets arrives, the buzzard's loadout can be completely customised, for example the 2 ATGMs could be switched for 2 more GBUs etc. 

I have tried it out on the dev branch and it looks really promising, it's one of the reason I made this post. But nobody seems to be paying attention to this and are too hung up on "ATGMs OP!"...

 

38 minutes ago, Amentes said:

Never seen an AI-Neophron shoot at airborne targets since 3,0.

I think the enemy jets have been changed to more more like how they were in I&A2, they will come in and stay on the map until shot down.

That said I still agree they aren't too dangerous to pilots, with our own jet however, enemy CAS could be turned up a few notches as well.

[Lone]

The buzzard is either used poorly and then you have to play without cas, or if I pilot knows what he's doing, overused to the point of no return.

 

This is a moot discussion, the Dev team will not be implementing this change as it throws up too many issues, the current cas system has vastly improved on I&a 2 and we're not going to go back a step.

[S0zi0p4th]

To suplement Lone's answer's  

 

Its no use to discus this futher for now we wont be changing anything with the CAS asset's 

 

But Yes we will be looking in the jets DLC when it drops 

 

Greetz Sozio

[Jason.]

Although I don't agree with some of what @Stanhope has said, and that his posts have been regarding a buzzard armed with ATGMs which I have since said to ignore.

I do appreciate that he's been willing to explain his opinions.

 

@Lone I've given many reasons for how this change would be balanced or even be less powerful than the greyhawks, so when you just say:

4 hours ago, Lone said:

it is too powerful and prone to abuse to replace the greyhawk

 

And I ask for you to explain:

1 hour ago, Lone said:

if I pilot knows what he's doing, overused to the point of no return.

1 hour ago, Lone said:

the Dev team will not be implementing this change as it throws up too many issues

I feel that you're not taking it seriously.

 

 

1 hour ago, Lone said:

The buzzard is either used poorly and then you have to play without cas, or if I pilot knows what he's doing, overused to the point of no return.

This applies exactly the same way to a good or bad UAV op.

 

1 hour ago, Lone said:

 

the current cas system has vastly improved on I&a 2 and we're not going to go back a step.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you here but the "cas system", being a UAV operator with 2 greyhawks, hasn't changed a bit since I&A2.

And I don't see how it can be going back a step when it's not something that's been done before?

 

@S0zi0p4th This change would be for when the jets update comes out anyway, so that's fine, but I thought we could still discuss it earlier?  

[Lone]

Buddy, If anyone isn't listening here its you, you've been told over and over with reasoning behind why the suggestions just don't fit on our server and you keep coming back with the same points.

 

As I said, this will not be implemented or looked into further, I encourage the submission of ideas but the dogmatic manner with which you are presenting this helps no-one. When the jet update is released we may look into this but for now the idea has been rejected.

[S0zi0p4th]

Locking Thread because we going in circle's