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Rewards Rework


Lone

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Hello all,

 

It's time for the admin team to ask your much-valued opinion, as many of you may have noticed the current reward system is viewed as sub-par by many long-term players and this has spurred the admin team into a careful discussion of our current options.

 

What we are thinking about is a complete rework of the current reward system, and therefore I&A itself. Here's the down low on our current idea, subject to changes and open to criticism and suggestions:

 

  1. Remove non-standard vehicles from all default spawns (including FOB's and any other old spawning methods)
  2. Add a point-based system for the purchase of non-standard vehicles, points will be awarded for...
    1. Completing AO's, Main, Priority and Side (NOT individual kills)
    2. Transporting Troops
    3. Team-based actions, for example reviving or repairing
  3. Add a point-based system for the purchase of other combat aides, artillery strikes for example.
  4. Reward points are both individual and squad-based: so you can buy rewards as an individual, or donate your points to your squad so the squad leader can buy larger rewards.
  5. Reward squad-based play without penalizing solo play, for example, players complete a mission:
    1. All players on the server get 10 individual points
    2. All players who participated in the mission get 100 individual points
    3. All squads who participated in the mission gets 50 communal points
      1. Squad leader gets +25 points
    4. (These values are wildly speculative and subject to change)
  6. Reduce player point gain in non-standard vehicles to encourage their use as a support rather than a *Lets Complete the AO* (This also promotes a fairer distribution of assets amongst players). While players are mounted on certain vehicles, they accumulate points differently:
    1. 1st class : Armoured vehicles, vehicles with cannons : no points with active reward of that kind

    2. 2nd class : Medium vehicles, vehicles with guns : half points
    3. 3rd class : Transport vehicles : full points
  7. Limit the number of extreme assets (i.e. the Slammer) to prevent overuse. E.G.
    1. MAX 1 Heavy Tank

    2. MAX 1 Gunship class helicopter

    3. MAX 3 APC Class Vehicles

    4. etc...

 

Here is a WIP list of proposed spawnable's, exact point costs yet to be discussed.

 

Costs.thumb.PNG.0cfd9ab62b36986a58a46bb40d2ab8d0.PNG

 

As said above, we at AW value your opinions and feedback. When it comes to the up and coming next iteration of I&A, this is the place to air your grievances, ideas and comments. 

 

Thank you in advance,

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What would consitute "players who participated in the mission"

 

If assets are limited (ie one heavy tank) it could cause issues as it might feel again that it is first come first served to purchasing the asset. And there could still be a monopoly.

 

Now I can see this being a question, and why not I guess - could rewards be gear/weapons outside of your class? I like and hate the idea to be fair, but if they were really expensive it might not ba a bad thing (and I mean more expensive than a tank).

 

But I really like the potential here.

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Today is your lucky day, I feel like giving constructive criticism.

 

- What do you mean with point 1? Seriously, I have no. Clue with what you mean with it.

- I am happy with number 2,3 and 5. However , That the squad leader gets a bonus could be abused by making 1 man private squads.

- 6 Could be used to farm points and quickly get those assets going after a restart.

- Do not limit assets, if Zeus notices that armor is rolling mission after mission, they can drop in some AT. It also runs into the first come - first serve problem.

- For the spawnables, remove the wipeout. It will destroy everything with a proper pilot and someone with a laser designator. Also the darter, no just no. A UAV operator can get infinite amounts of those. If you allow others to use them, than the only ones that could really use them are:

 

- Lone snipers

- a spotter with a sniper

- an FSG gunner

- a wild scar who wants to make sure nothing gets out alive.

 

- I suggest adding a supply drop to the list, each with different cargo that you can choose from. Only preset loadouts, no custom. The supply drop would parachute down at your location, but wind can blow it to somewhere inaccessible thus proper placement is required.

 

Well, I am looking forward to your response. We are on the internet and nothing can go wrong here if you have a different opinion.......:grin-min:

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I overall like the idea but have some questions/remarks:

 

-what are the standard vehicles?  I'm guessing the quads, the hunters and the ghost hawks?  Or are there more?

-will those points be saved on mission/server restart? 

-I'd limit the extreme assets to 1 gunship (heli and vtol), 2 heavy tanks (1 can go main, 1 can go side), 3 apcs (maybe even not more than 2 of one type).

-Removing the darter from the UAV might cause some problems.  He might go dive bombing stuff because nobody requested anything the last 3-4 AOs (i've had this happen to me and i just took a darter and wiped out the arty).  On top of this basically half the UAV ops job would be removed.  I regularly have multiple darters over the AO assisting infantry where i can by spotting enemies.  

-Although the points system is overall a good idea one has to be careful that things don't turn into: i have to grind to get that reward to have some fun.  You should still be able to have fun with whatever spawns standard.

-(point 6) in which class would for example the bobcat be?  It is (imo) the best support vehicle out there as it has fuel, ammo and the capability to repair anything.  So if you drive that to the AO you could help out a lot of people.  Basically: will there be a separate class for support vehicles?  (with for example a 1.25x multiplier?) 

-if arty strikes are implemented, where do you have to purchase them and do you have to use them directly after purchase?  Right now you can only purchase it at base meaning that you can't actually use it in the field.  You just have to trust the UAV op/inf in the field that you're going to hit something.

-squads with only 1 player should not get the squad leader bonus.  I often create my own squad as a pilot (unless people in vortex are chatty) just to not have to bother of all the stuff i mark on the map.

-i wouldn't add a buyable supply drop.  People already think that pilots are only there to transport people, no need to make that actually true.  I would add a supply box to standard base spawn.  Preferably an empty one so that pilots can load it up with what infantry needs.  And apart from being able to sling it i'd add the option to load them into the back of larger helis/the vtols (basically everything that has a ramp).  And give pilots the ability to paradrop that crate.  

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Important note: just a clarification, my comment should be seen just as a simple member and not as a AW staff.

 

- Remove non-standard vehicles from all default spawns (including FOB's and any other old spawning methods)

Comment: I would keep all vics that spawn when the server starts, but the vics with guns (except support vics) didn't respawn. As a example, you would have the slammer in the beginning but if got destroyed someone had to buy it by spending points.

 

- Add a point-based system for the purchase of non-standard vehicles, points will be awarded for...

C: Points for team-based play should be increased, as a example: revive player: x points; revive squad player: x + y points

 

Reward squad-based play without penalizing solo play, for example, players complete a mission:

C: only consider "squad" 3 or more players squads, team work remember? ;)

 

- Reduce player point gain in non-standard vehicles to encourage their use as a support rather than a *Lets Complete the AO* (This also promotes a fairer distribution of assets amongst players).

C: by limiting the points of players with active rewards (e.g. player already has a wipeout) it stops a bit the abuse of wiping AO's with a powerfull gunship just to win more points. You have a wipeout? you don't receive points while you have it.
This is a good way of limiting a player/squad from always having points to buy the powerfull stuff, this way everyone has a fair chance of getting the "big guns".
Good call this one!

 

- Limit the number of extreme assets (i.e. the Slammer) to prevent overuse. E.G.

C: completely agree, with great power comes great responsibility, having too much power at the same time also limits the fun of the other players that are just running with a gun in the hands...

Maybe award zeus the capability of spawning rewards and remove points from players (e.g. zeus creats a super mission for a tank platoon) and then more players can enjoy that at the same time

 

Again: my personal opinions.

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11 minutes ago, Lost Bullet said:

Reward squad-based play without penalizing solo play, for example, players complete a mission:

C: only consider "squad" 3 or more players squads, team work remember? ;)

A sniper and a spotter can do some effective teamwork.  Add an exception for sniper and spotters?

 

12 minutes ago, Lost Bullet said:

- Add a point-based system for the purchase of non-standard vehicles, points will be awarded for...

C: Points for team-based play should be increased, as a example: revive player: x points; revive squad player: x + y points

Problem with this is that medics will now join a squad and not for example take a hunter to the AO and drive around like crazy to revive everyone.  Same goes for engineers if he had to chose between a squadmates hunter having one less wheel or a heli that is losing fuel fast would he not chose the thing that gives him the most points?

 

11 minutes ago, Lost Bullet said:

One more extra thing: remove points if team-killing :D

If crashing a heli doesn't count as a mass TK but as 1 crash for which points also get taken, sure.  I sure hope you can't go negative.

 

Just my 2 cents.

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2 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

A sniper and a spotter can do some effective teamwork.  Add an exception for sniper and spotters?

True, same for FSG probably...

 

3 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

Problem with this is that medics will now join a squad and not for example take a hunter to the AO and drive around like crazy to revive everyone.  Same goes for engineers if he had to chose between a squadmates hunter having one less wheel or a heli that is losing fuel fast would he not chose the thing that gives him the most points?

As I recall AW1 and AW2 slots, there's a medic + repair per squad, if people played their roles and played as a team there should be enough medics to go around for everyone.
Anyway, medics/repair can still go around doing their thing, more actions=more points after all.
In case of the repair, different points for vic repaired could be a good thing.

 

6 minutes ago, Stanhope said:

If crashing a heli doesn't count as a mass TK but as 1 crash for which points also get taken, sure.  I sure hope you can't go negative.

1second=1 kill; different seconds=more kills? everyone in the chopper dies at the same time, award the pilot with *one* negative TK.
If pilots get penalties for assuming unnecessary risks they will start to be more (extra) careful?

 

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2 hours ago, Lost Bullet said:

Reward squad-based play without penalizing solo play, for example, players complete a mission:

C: only consider "squad" 3 or more players squads, team work remember? ;)

 

 

Side note to this, many people can be in squads, but might never interact with them, but will get the squad bonus.

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Cool, Multi reply time :D

 

Gamerbug!

2 hours ago, Gamerbug said:

What would consitute "players who participated in the mission"

 

If assets are limited (ie one heavy tank) it could cause issues as it might feel again that it is first come first served to purchasing the asset. And there could still be a monopoly.

 

Now I can see this being a question, and why not I guess - could rewards be gear/weapons outside of your class? I like and hate the idea to be fair, but if they were really expensive it might not ba a bad thing (and I mean more expensive than a tank).

 

But I really like the potential here.

 

Players who participated will be people in a radius around the AO as it finishes I belive, for coding reasons, I realise this could be frustrating if you die (especially to somthing stupid like a TK) just before completion so any suggestion here would be nice.

 

Gear/Weapons outside your class needs carful considering, I can see the merit of being able to purchase a satchel charge (if they where limited to EOD) but I dont like the idea of a medic being able to buy a high claibre rifle.

 

 

Cryo!

1 hour ago, Cryo said:

Today is your lucky day, I feel like giving constructive criticism.

 

- What do you mean with point 1? Seriously, I have no. Clue with what you mean with it.

- I am happy with number 2,3 and 5. However , That the squad leader gets a bonus could be abused by making 1 man private squads.

- 6 Could be used to farm points and quickly get those assets going after a restart.

- Do not limit assets, if Zeus notices that armor is rolling mission after mission, they can drop in some AT. It also runs into the first come - first serve problem.

- For the spawnables, remove the wipeout. It will destroy everything with a proper pilot and someone with a laser designator. Also the darter, no just no. A UAV operator can get infinite amounts of those. If you allow others to use them, than the only ones that could really use them are:

 

- Lone snipers

- a spotter with a sniper

- an FSG gunner

- a wild scar who wants to make sure nothing gets out alive.

 

- I suggest adding a supply drop to the list, each with different cargo that you can choose from. Only preset loadouts, no custom. The supply drop would parachute down at your location, but wind can blow it to somewhere inaccessible thus proper placement is required.

 

Well, I am looking forward to your response. We are on the internet and nothing can go wrong here if you have a different opinion.......:grin-min:

 

 Point 1 - means that freindly vehicle spawns such as the Pawnee at FOB whatever it is would be removed as you can now purchase them. I like this idea however (its an outdated knowlege of I&A because no slammer spawns now anyway but oh well)

15 minutes ago, Lost Bullet said:

Comment: I would keep all vics that spawn when the server starts, but the vics with guns (except support vics) didn't respawn. As a example, you would have the slammer in the beginning but if got destroyed someone had to buy it by spending points.

 

Squad leader abuse would have to be stopped by defining a "squad" as a set number of players or above, as suggested by stanhope and lost.

 

I dont really understand what you mean by this, 

1 hour ago, Cryo said:

- 6 Could be used to farm points and quickly get those assets going after a restart.

but there is a merit to starting (with the closer AO's) with fewer assets and no points to sepnd yet and then slowly building up your team's arsenal as the AO's progress outward away from base. Point 6 means that once a high end asset is obtained, point gain is lowered to stop somone with a lammer slingshotting their pointcount out of orbit because thay have somthing cool.

 

1 hour ago, Cryo said:

Do not limit assets, if Zeus notices that armor is rolling mission after mission, they can drop in some AT. It also runs into the first come - first serve problem.

But what if there is no zeus/admin on, it happens more often than you think, I am currently firmly set in the idea that it should be limited and if somone has held onto an asset too long or is abusing its power, that is when a zeus (if available) would step in. I'm open to persuasion on this point of veiw - one thing that was suggested was to remove powerfull assets ability to be refuled or repaired so that they hav a shorter lifespan. I think possibly if you cut that to just preventing them from refueling it would give players a visible timer to work from and enable more assets to be shared. However it does sound mighty unfair depending on fuel consumtion.

 

I would suggest that the darter is a low point cost purchase available to the UAV oporator only, along with other UAV's some things should still be role specific, for example only pilots can buy air assets. that said perhaps the darter should just be free in the arsenal as it is now. More discussion required

 

2 hours ago, Cryo said:

- I suggest adding a supply drop to the list, each with different cargo that you can choose from. Only preset loadouts, no custom. The supply drop would parachute down at your location, but wind can blow it to somewhere inaccessible thus proper placement is required.

As stanhope said, this would just take more jobs away from the pilots, if anyone is familiar with AWE and the supply depot system, i envisage somthing similar here.

 

 

Stanhope!

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

-what are the standard vehicles?  I'm guessing the quads, the hunters and the ghost hawks?  Or are there more?

Bang on the head (I think) obviously this opic requires discussion.

 

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

-will those points be saved on mission/server restart?

There are arguments for and against this, on one hand a persistence may increase player retention, and would allow a pilot to, say, play as infantry during the early stages of the server and swich to pilot when they have the points / need for a big ol huron or some such. However, as I said to Cryo, there is a merit to slowly building up assets over the course of invading the whole island. what does everyone think?

 

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

-I'd limit the extreme assets to 1 gunship (heli and vtol), 2 heavy tanks (1 can go main, 1 can go side), 3 apcs (maybe even not more than 2 of one type).

Contentious point that needs more community discussion, as I said above I think limiting is a good idea, but if the community is set against it what can I say?

 

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

-Removing the darter from the UAV might cause some problems.  He might go dive bombing stuff because nobody requested anything the last 3-4 AOs (i've had this happen to me and i just took a darter and wiped out the arty).  On top of this basically half the UAV ops job would be removed.  I regularly have multiple darters over the AO assisting infantry where i can by spotting enemies.  

I've covered this already, mabye the UAV op starts with free acces to darters but then must buy other UAV's this would make them worry more about the survivability of their greyhawks. this does however raise the question "How do UAV operators score points" because kills dont gain points we need to consider this carfully.

 

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

-(point 6) in which class would for example the bobcat be?  It is (imo) the best support vehicle out there as it has fuel, ammo and the capability to repair anything.  So if you drive that to the AO you could help out a lot of people.  Basically: will there be a separate class for support vehicles?  (with for example a 1.25x multiplier?) 

Intersting point, my immediate reaction is class 2, as it is armour, but there is wiggle room here.

 

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

-if arty strikes are implemented, where do you have to purchase them and do you have to use them directly after purchase?  Right now you can only purchase it at base meaning that you can't actually use it in the field.  You just have to trust the UAV op/inf in the field that you're going to hit something.

I feel arty will either be plug in coords and hope or purchase and then activate later using laser deg or again coords but from the field.

 

Your other points I awnsered when talking about Cryo's points.

 

Lost!

 

No big reply for you im afraid, I just agree :P especially the TK point.

 

 

 

LET IT BE KNOWN, unlike the post above, all comments and ideas posted by me in this reply are mine and mine alone, they have not been discussed with the other members of the team and do not reperesent definitive fact about the system. When I am posting as the liason for the team it will be prefixed with a plural, for example - 

12 hours ago, Lone said:

It's time for the admin team

or 

12 hours ago, Lone said:

What we are thinking about is a complete rework

 

Thank you all for your feedback and keep it coming!

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Some additional thoughts spurred by these excellent suggestions: and keep in mind all of this is in its gestation phase, nothing of it is locked down.

 

1) Squad size - I'm thinking you only get squad bonus points if you have people in your squad, and the total bonus is perhaps related to the number in your squad (perhaps 20 points per member over the first?). So yes, a two-man sniper team would get some bonus points.

 

2) "Participating in the mission" - I changed the initial text block from "in the AO" to "participated in the mission" to somehow reflect upon and pick up on the fact that players can enter the AO, do a huge amount of work, only to be killed and the mission completed by other players.  So the idea would be something like, when you enter the AO, you get timestamped (a variable is added to your player role) and if the mission is completed within X minutes of your timestamp, you get credit for having participated. So there's something of a buffer there.

 

3) Arty strikes - I'm not sure how the current system works now, but Arma does have built-in "virtual" artillery support, in Eden it's accomplished with modules but no doubt there are functions that can be leveraged to make it more dynamic for our needs... what I would want is the ability to buy the rewards in base, and be able to deploy them in the field, using either a map or designator.

 

4) Points persistence - I think we have a solid idea in mind for how to allow players to retain points in the event of a disconnect, but I don't think we want to have players be able to carry over points from one instance of the mission to another (ie., after a server reboot), as you might have the case of players starting on drastically different power levels. We're open to discussion on this point, though.

 

5) Negative points - open to discussion on this point, but my feeling is that people who engage in teamkilling aren't in it for the points, so penalizing them this way wouldn't necessarily help. It's also especially harsh if the TK was accidental.

 

- R

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3 hours ago, Lone said:

One thing that was suggested was to remove powerfull assets ability to be refuled or repaired so that they hav a shorter lifespan. I think possibly if you cut that to just preventing them from refueling it would give players a visible timer to work from and enable more assets to be shared. However it does sound mighty unfair depending on fuel consumtion.

 

If a vehicle has a purchase cost, maybe it can have a refuel/rearm/repair cost? Interacting with any station or vehicle subtracts points if available, and error messages if not?

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3 hours ago, Lost Bullet said:

1second=1 kill; different seconds=more kills? everyone in the chopper dies at the same time, award the pilot with *one* negative TK.
If pilots get penalties for assuming unnecessary risks they will start to be more (extra) careful?

Not that it's a bad idea but when someone at base takes down a heli with a gmg, they all die at the same time.  What could be done is check if the player is in the driver's seat of a vehicle.  If he is all those TKs got reduced to 1 and if he's not the driver and for example a gunner each TK counts as 1 TK.

 

3 hours ago, Lone said:

I would suggest that the darter is a low point cost purchase available to the UAV oporator only, along with other UAV's some things should still be role specific, for example only pilots can buy air assets. that said perhaps the darter should just be free in the arsenal as it is now. More discussion required

Alternatively the greyhawks could be made assets that you have to purchase.  It would certainly make UAV operators be more careful with them.  And darters would get primarily used for recon.

And another alternative could be to disable the darters laser designator.  It would basically become a spotting tool only.

 

3 hours ago, Lone said:

if anyone is familiar with AWE and the supply depot system, i envisage somthing similar here.

Could someone help the players that have only been on EU1&2?

 

 

3 hours ago, Lone said:
Quote

-what are the standard vehicles?  I'm guessing the quads, the hunters and the ghost hawks?  Or are there more?

Bang on the head (I think) obviously this topic requires discussion.

My opinion:

Standard respawnable vehicles:

-quads 

-unarmed hunters/prowlers (respectively EU1 and EU2)

-Ghosthawks with disabled turrets or unarmed hellcats

-an empty ammo box (not really a vehicle but yea)

-1x of every huron container (thus: medical, ammo, fuel and repairs), at mission start they wouldn't be useful but when someone buys a huron they can be slung to near the AO. I'd allow damage on them so that people can't just catapult them deep into the AO.  I'd however disable the respawning when abandoned.

-transport hemtts

 

Stuff that doesn't respawn but is at base when mission starts:

-2x hunter HMG

-2x hunter GMG

-1x APC

 

(presuming that in base there is a repair pad for each vehicle)

 

3 hours ago, Lone said:

There are arguments for and against this, on one hand a persistence may increase player retention, and would allow a pilot to, say, play as infantry during the early stages of the server and swich to pilot when they have the points / need for a big ol huron or some such. However, as I said to Cryo, there is a merit to slowly building up assets over the course of invading the whole island. what does everyone think?

How about a middle way?  Points get partially transferred to the next mission.  So you'd have a certain amount of points, if this amount is under a certain number you get them back after restart.  If your points are above said number you'd get that said number amount of points after a restart and you'd lose the rest of them.

 

 

3 hours ago, Lone said:

one thing that was suggested was to remove powerfull assets ability to be refuled or repaired so that they hav a shorter lifespan. I think possibly if you cut that to just preventing them from refueling it would give players a visible timer to work from and enable more assets to be shared. However it does sound mighty unfair depending on fuel consumtion.

Although @Amentes solution isn't bad at all i'd suggest the following:  add a countdown timer to the most powerful rewards.  They'd despawn after a given time.  However if this is done i'd also add the ability to sell your vehicles back.  Not for full price but for half the price.  And if they are damaged maybe even less.

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3 things that came to (my) mind quickly:

 

  • its a "insane" thing to script and balance,the workload this affords seems illiterate compared to the result
  • the regular "new to" or seldom playing pub will have a hard time understanding/accepting this
  • if this thing air´s call it the "Lex Scar"

 

i will definatly answer more deep when i got time,i m otw to a birthday dinner so i m way to short on time (yet) - there s quite a few things i will respond to.

I really like your effort (admin team) in trying to make things more fair for all players,dont get me wrong there.

I m just not sure if that´s is a good thing in current state of development of I+A 3.1 - its def. not on my Top 10 list of things I+A needs/lacks.

Like said,short thougts for now.

*thumbs up*

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How about a middle way?  Points get partially transferred to the next mission.

 

I do like this, it rewards players who stay on the server, but I also think it could be hard to implement from a coding perspective.  What I would suggest is it is the kind of thing that comes in stages, we start with certain goals and then when those are implemented we look to perfecting / improving.

 

I don't think I addressed the UAV operator and how they'd gain points, but if you're part of a squad, you'd gain points by association. Otherwise there may not be a feasible way to track in points exactly how the UAV operator contributes to the mission.

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I m just not sure if that´s is a good thing in current state of development of I+A 3.1 - its def. not on my Top 10 list of things I+A needs/lacks.

 

Just wanted to say that this is a longer term goal for I&A, there will be a bug fix release in the shorter term that encompasses all the great fix ideas that have been brought forward.

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I really don't like the parachute spawn.. unless this will be really expensive or have a cooldown timer of some sorts (once every 30min?). I'm afraid this may render some pilots useless as the impatient with spend their points on the parachute drop rather than having to wait a minute. 

 

Also point 7 you mentioned a limited amount of extreme assets, does this mean the vehicles that spawn with the FOB's get changed too, or won't they be counted as an "extreme asset"? I know FOB Guardian spawns a Blackfoot, Orca and slammer, FOB Marathon spawns a Pawnee and FOB Martian a Marshal. 

 

Other than these 2 points I mentioned I find myself agreeing with most of it, especially the point loss if and when a teamkills happens. 

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I really don't like the parachute spawn.. unless this will be really expensive or have a cooldown timer of some sorts (once every 30min?). I'm afraid this may render some pilots useless as the impatient with spend their points on the parachute drop rather than having to wait a minute. 

 

Yeah, we'd want to make it so that it doesn't remove the need for pilots, but I would like to see it as an option so that players don't have to ultimately rely on pilots for everything - should bridge the gap.  So yes, it would be decently expensive.

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9 hours ago, D.Devil said:

Also point 7 you mentioned a limited amount of extreme assets, does this mean the vehicles that spawn with the FOB's get changed too

This indeed means that the special vehicles may not spawn, another point of contention here in the ideas box has been reworking the FOB's, as they don't seem balanced or, well, working so we'll see.

 

With the parachute drop, the issue you raised was discussed by the admin team. One possible solution we came up with was they are only place let once the radio tower is down, making it a bigger target and giving pilots dibs on most inserts for at least the 1st half of the AO (unless you have a dedicated tower squad on). Another was to make them not last very long, just enough time for a squad to,say, undertake a risky manuvre and regroup with their squad again inside the AO.

 

Thanks for all the feedback guys and keep it coming! If your running out of ideas relevant to the point system, what else would you like changed/improved for the next iteration of I&A?

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Firstly, I think it's great that you're encouraging this community interaction and listening to our feedback, as you've probably noticed already, there's a lot of opinions on this topic!

 

On 23/02/2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

Add a point-based system for the purchase of non-standard vehicles, points will be awarded for...

  1. Completing AO's, Main, Priority and Side (NOT individual kills
  2. Transporting Troops
  3. Team-based actions, for example reviving or repairing

 

It sounds nice to say "team-based actions", but I can't think of many other actions that points could be awarded for.

Meaning that medics and repair specs would be earning more points than everyone else (especially medics).

 

One way of solving this would be to reduce the points that medics and repair specs get from completing missions, to compensate for the additional points they will get by playing their roles.

 

On 23/02/2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

Reward points are both individual and squad-based: so you can buy rewards as an individual, or donate your points to your squad so the squad leader can buy larger rewards.

 

Reward squad-based play without penalizing solo play, for example, players complete a mission:

  1. All players on the server get 10 individual points
  2. All players who participated in the mission get 100 individual points
  3. All squads who participated in the mission gets 50 communal points
    1. Squad leader gets +25 points
  4. (These values are wildly speculative and subject to change)

 

I like the idea of being able to pool your points together so that squads can buy vehicles that can benefit all of them (apcs).

However I don't like the part about squads or the squad leader gaining additional points, I feel that this would be too easily abused and won't give any gameplay benefits.

 

On 23/02/2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

Reduce player point gain in non-standard vehicles to encourage their use as a support rather than a *Lets Complete the AO* (This also promotes a fairer distribution of assets amongst players). While players are mounted on certain vehicles, they accumulate points differently:

  1. 1st class : Armoured vehicles, vehicles with cannons : no points with active reward of that kind

  2. 2nd class : Medium vehicles, vehicles with guns : half points
  3. 3rd class : Transport vehicles : full points

 

I don't see how this will work... if you gain points by completing an AO, then what's stopping a player in a tank doing huge damage to an AO, but before it ends he can get out of the tank so that he gains full points.

If you plan on making it so that any player who was in a tank at any time for a duration of an AO gets no points, then think about what that will do to people using APCs to transport other players.

Players will not want to get into someone else's APC to move around the AO as they know that doing so will reduce how many points they will earn.

 

From my experience the only vehicles that should be penalised are:

Wipeout, Kajman, Blackfoot, MBTs, and armed Orca.

These are the only vehicles that can do serious damage to an AO. With these vehicles I'd recommend half points, since zero points seems a little harsh. Perhaps quarter points for the first 3 vehicles I listed.

 

A few extra points:

For FOBs, since you plan on removing the special vehicles that spawn at them, they could just become resupply points, with the different HEMTTs and a few hunters etc.

Since this rewards rework is likely to take some time, can we expect a quick fix for the rewards system in the meantime (I'm thinking just changing the current reward vehicles). 

For limiting assets, ofc we can see how it goes, but I don't think there needs to be limits on ground vehicles, a limit of one armed air vehicle is enough imo (to make sure there are enough transport pilots).

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On 23.2.2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

1.Remove non-standard vehicles from all default spawns (including FOB's and any other old spawning methods)

 

non standard = either AAF or CSAT vehicles,choppers

sounds reasonable for spawns

 

 

On 23.2.2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

2. Add a point-based system for the purchase of non-standard vehicles, points will be awarded for...

  • Completing AO's, Main, Priority and Side (NOT individual kills)
  • Transporting Troops
  • Team-based actions, for example reviving or repairing

 

the point system can be argued alot,how you distribute/earn points opens the door to abuse imo - in theory i can sit in a truck not doing/killing anything in AO/priority/side and will get points to spend on myself or collect and share to others without much effort

points for transporting troops (chopper/vehicle) sounds reasonable and give pilots a fair share for completed drop offs (read= alive)

points for reviving/repairing Yes Sir

but pls dont forget credit points for radiotower,too? (EoD,UAVop)

 

 

On 23.2.2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

3. Add a point-based system for the purchase of other combat aides, artillery strikes for example.

 

this is currently in already and rarely anyone spends  their kills to call in arty when you have a (active) Mk6 gunner,good ATs or UAVop

in fact,it doesnt make sense in any way to only be able to call in arty strikes from base when (by logic) you d be in field when you needed to and could live correct

AI-Arty fed by certain amount of kills = no

 

 

On 23.2.2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

4. Reward points are both individual and squad-based: so you can buy rewards as an individual, or donate your points to your squad so the squad leader can buy larger rewards.

 

sounds logic,but again is open to abuse - what would a Squad Leader as example spawn in to raise the efficiency of his squad that isnt already available in Base/FOBs anyway?

 

 

On 23.2.2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

5. Reward squad-based play without penalizing solo play, for example, players complete a mission:

  • All players on the server get 10 individual points
  •  All players who participated in the mission get 100 individual points
  • All squads who participated in the mission gets 50 communal points

 

tihs by math sucks - anyone in AO gets points individual + when you r in a squad additional points

barbie dress up dolls base get points for just being there ...

the amount of points for each action/participation is quite a nifty debate too,as i dont see spending 100 indiv. points as example for a single AO > more like 10 for that(when lonewolf),25 for being in a squad (in AO) and no communal points for squads@mission.

And how would you detect which % of the actual squad is engaged in combat to distribute points fairly even?

I predict a pain in the ass for this to work out and be balanced evenly.

 

 

On 23.2.2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

6. Reduce player point gain in non-standard vehicles to encourage their use as a support rather than a *Lets Complete the AO* (This also promotes a fairer distribution of assets amongst players). While players are mounted on certain vehicles, they accumulate points differently:

  • 1st class : Armoured vehicles, vehicles with cannons : no points with active reward of that kind
  • 2nd class : Medium vehicles, vehicles with guns : half points
  • 3rd class : Transport vehicles : full points

 

No way.

Keeping a Gorgon/KUMA/whatever "non standard" vehicle is a art in itself.Then completing missions with that very asset should by default reward usual points.

Remember,its just a different skin and not a pink unicorn firing nukes.

Anything i can do in such a vehicle i can pull of with "standard" assets and without having the pain to ensure my asset stays alive and active.

Some players always find a way to "be better",detect flaws in the system and will abuse em (to a extend).

Thats how it´s been and always will be.

 

 

On 23.2.2017 at 0:18 AM, Lone said:

7. Limit the number of extreme assets (i.e. the Slammer) to prevent overuse. E.G.

  • MAX 1 Heavy Tank
  • MAX 1 Gunship class helicopter
  • MAX 3 APC Class Vehicles

 

I dont consider a Slammer a "extreme" asset in the first place.Not even the "UP"version.

Only one Gunship = reasonable

3 APC class vehicles = unsure,but i rarely see more than 3 of em crew´d anyway yet.

 

 

 

 

 

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23 hours ago, Lone said:

Gear/Weapons outside your class needs carful considering, I can see the merit of being able to purchase a satchel charge (if they where limited to EOD) but I dont like the idea of a medic being able to buy a high claibre rifle.

 

keep weapon/class restrictions - just tweak em more fitting to role (example EoD/Demolition Expert > use of explosives)

 

 

23 hours ago, Lone said:

Squad leader abuse would have to be stopped by defining a "squad" as a set number of players or above, as suggested by stanhope and lost.

 

Squad minimum should be defined by 4 people (minimum count for 1 Fire-Team)

 

 

23 hours ago, Lone said:

I would suggest that the darter is a low point cost purchase available to the UAV oporator only, along with other UAV's some things should still be role specific, for example only pilots can buy air assets. that said perhaps the darter should just be free in the arsenal as it is now

 

The Darter should be a "standard" asset to a UAVop and therefor be free of cost.

 

 

23 hours ago, Lone said:

 

On 23.2.2017 at 11:48 AM, Stanhope said:

-what are the standard vehicles?  I'm guessing the quads, the hunters and the ghost hawks?  Or are there more?

Bang on the head (I think) obviously this opic requires discussio

 

Standard vehicles by (my) defintion :

Hunter (unarmed)

Hunter HMG

Repair truck

Fuel Truck

Quad Bike

Offroad (unarmed)

AM7 Marshall

MH9

Ghosthawk

Huron

 

 

12 hours ago, Ryko said:

@parachutes

Yeah, we'd want to make it so that it doesn't remove the need for pilots, but I would like to see it as an option so that players don't have to ultimately rely on pilots for everything - should bridge the gap.  So yes, it would be decently expensive.

 

3 hours ago, Lone said:

With the parachute drop, the issue you raised was discussed by the admin team. One possible solution we came up with was they are only place let once the radio tower is down, making it a bigger target and giving pilots dibs on most inserts for at least the 1st half of the AO (unless you have a dedicated tower squad on). Another was to make them not last very long, just enough time for a squad to,say, undertake a risky manuvre and regroup with their squad again inside the AO.

 

Total no to parachutes.

Usual HALO jumps never work out and are rarly used.It also adds in a certain "respawn and dont care about" attitude.

Insert by chopper/vehicle or walk.

Nothing in between.

 

 

Quote

Thanks for all the feedback guys and keep it coming! If your running out of ideas relevant to the point system, what else would you like changed/improved for the next iteration of I&A?

 

to early to talk about getting the main airport base @ I+A 2.8 back?

the FOBbase on I+A 3.0 wasnt ok enough - Selekano is better,but also exposed like the before 1 too.

There s so much reasons the change of base is/was a crippled idea and i m not the only  one feeling like this.

#makeBasegreatagain

 

And you might want to look onto the role of the Mk6 gunner too,as i´ve seen/know quite a few of those that wreck AOs permanently by using a single Mortar + a Ammo truck (from base or FOB) to have (nearly unlimited) ammo for your mortar.

Screw packing mortar backpacks,the new style to killwhore is the above.

And no,i m not killjealous - i mpointing out a flaw in the system.

#limit ammo trucks to base only

Hence i havnt listed em in (my) defintion of "standard vehicles".

 

 

Edited by TheScar
shitload of edits to get 90% of stuff buzzing in my head accuratly in
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Long multi-quote / -response post incoming. :)

 

As response to the first post:

2.1 and 5 combined:

I would welcome getting a score for mission objectives and not just kills, but I could see a lot of frustration because of it. E.g. is time in AO considered to distribute points? If not, does someone who has spent hours in the AO get as much points as someone who just arrived? If time IS considered but not kills (as is suggested above, if I understand correctly), what if you spend 2 hours in an AO, killing 70% of the AI in there, only to die moments before the AO is completed? Similarly, what if you're idling inside an AO for 2 hours, and kill nobody? Does the first get no points, and the second full points?

 

Regarding side missions: will there be a difference in points gained from different side missions? E.g. the prototype tank can be completed with a single GBU, while the Intel mission requires quite a lot of sneaky work and delicate work.

 

2.2: How would you be able to register this? Does it make a difference if you're driving a Hunter or a Huron?

 

7: Partially agree, in that I'd let that depend on the map as well. Altis is ALL terrain, so a tank / APC can go anywhere he likes. Tanoa has islands that can't be reached by ground vehicles, so an extra helicopter there might be worthwhile.

 

 

 

Then, on to the quotes:

On player roles:

@Lost Bullet

- As I recall AW1 and AW2 slots, there's a medic + repair per squad, if people played their roles and played as a team there should be enough medics to go around for everyone.

I will always welcome more teamplay, but whenever I've brought up the topic in the past, I've been pulled down from my cloud of dreams by someone saying it's a public server, so we shouldn't expect such behaviour on EU 1 / 2. Do you expect the reward system to be that good that it will be an incentive to play your role more?

 

 

About the UAV operator:

@Stanhope

-Removing the darter from the UAV might cause some problems.  He might go dive bombing stuff because nobody requested anything the last 3-4 AOs (i've had this happen to me and i just took a darter and wiped out the arty).  On top of this basically half the UAV ops job would be removed.  I regularly have multiple darters over the AO assisting infantry where i can by spotting enemies.

 

- Alternatively the greyhawks could be made assets that you have to purchase.  It would certainly make UAV operators be more careful with them.  And darters would get primarily used for recon.

And another alternative could be to disable the darters laser designator.  It would basically become a spotting tool only.

 

@Lone

- I would suggest that the darter is a low point cost purchase available to the UAV oporator only, along with other UAV's some things should still be role specific, for example only pilots can buy air assets. that said perhaps the darter should just be free in the arsenal as it is now. More discussion required

 

- I've covered this already, mabye the UAV op starts with free acces to darters but then must buy other UAV's this would make them worry more about the survivability of their greyhawks. this does however raise the question "How do UAV operators score points" because kills dont gain points we need to consider this carfully.

Definitely leave the Darter in for all-time use. If used properly, it's a vital source of intel for troops on the ground, and its laser designator can be used for several purposes aside from guiding the Greyhawk's GBU. I wouldn't hide it behind a paywall either, as due to ArmA modelling, it's far too easily shot. I once had a Darter 300m up, 600m from the coast, and it was shot down by a guy with a scopeless Kathiba. When I checked, I saw he only needed 4 bullets to do so...

 

Greyhawks are generally overpowered, so could be hid behind a paywall, but don't make them too restrictive either. If there's no AT or EOD available, taking down a tower or an armoured unit can be the only thing preventing you from completing an AO. Not that much of a problem on EU1, except during downtime, but it could be on EU2. (as said before, I think you need split EU1 development from EU2's, due to different terrain and community)

Given how points may be distributed by time in the AO, I doubt people would be very willing to log off, thereby losing their progress, just to reconnect in another role that's needed at that time.

 

Also, while it's to be reviewed when they actually release, the upcoming DLC's will change the whole dynamic of how to target and ID something, or e.g. how the Greyhawk operates (I definitely hope they get some love so the camera is finally worth a dime). Take this into account now before setting up something irreversible.

 

 

On Zeus:

@Lost Bullet

- Maybe award zeus the capability of spawning rewards and remove points from players (e.g. zeus creats a super mission for a tank platoon) and then more players can enjoy that at the same time

 

@Lone

- But what if there is no zeus/admin on, it happens more often than you think, I am currently firmly set in the idea that it should be limited and if somone has held onto an asset too long or is abusing its power, that is when a zeus (if available) would step in. I'm open to persuasion on this point of veiw

Zeus can already spawn (almost) anything he wants, which shouldn't change. Please, also don't handicap Zeus by instilling limits, since the "lack of resources"-messages may prevent us from taking action when it's needed.

 

Not sure if we should be allowed to get access to the points distribution. Not that I don't trust myself or my peers, but it won't be long until someone starts begging for points, or worse, starts claiming that a Spartan gave a friend an unfair benefit by granting him points, or took away points from someone he dislikes.

 

Lone, as a Spartan, that's a resolute no for me. First of all, define too long?

In general, regarding Zeus, I can already tell you that there will be a lot of complaints about our possible involvement in player deaths, even more so than is the case now because people will have had to "pay" for their tools. This will make us even less likely to intervene in any way. Because say, I spend some time on the server and gather enough points to buy myself a "clearly overpriced" (sure this will be a future quote) Slammer. I do, and head out to the AO, but get killed by AT or an airstrike within the first 10 minutes. Was I careless, or did Zeus have something to do with that?

 

Quite easy to blame the other guy, and even if there's no truth to any of it, just reading the rant on side chat may give the impression to new guys that Spartans are spoiling the fun. Would you go back to a server where that happens?

 

 

On teamkilling:

@Lost Bullet

- One more extra thing: remove points if team-killing

 

@Stanhope

- Not that it's a bad idea but when someone at base takes down a heli with a gmg, they all die at the same time.  What could be done is check if the player is in the driver's seat of a vehicle.  If he is all those TKs got reduced to 1 and if he's not the driver and for example a gunner each TK counts as 1 TK.

Teamkilling already removes points, and you can go negative if you do it too much. No changes required there.

 

Stanhope, I probably don't understand what you're saying correctly, but you make it sound as if a pilot would be punished (even if it's just 1 point, depending on how pilots earn points, that could be significant) when he is shot down by a TK'er? I doubt it would be possible to make a distinction, coding wise, between being hit by a TKer, being hit by an enemy or a CFIT?

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Save the greyhawks!

 

23 hours ago, Lone said:

I've covered this already, mabye the UAV op starts with free acces to darters but then must buy other UAV's this would make them worry more about the survivability of their greyhawks.

 

19 hours ago, Stanhope said:

Alternatively the greyhawks could be made assets that you have to purchase.  It would certainly make UAV operators be more careful with them.  And darters would get primarily used for recon.

 

8 minutes ago, Eagle-Eye said:

Greyhawks are generally overpowered, so could be hid behind a paywall, but don't make them too restrictive either.

 

I'm quite surprised you've all suggested removing the greyhawks as a default spawn and making them only available with enough points.

You seem to be missing a critical problem, VERY few people would be interested in playing the UAV op if they only have access to a darter and have to wat 30 mins - an hours to get their first greyhawk.

It makes about as much sense as forcing pilots to buy their first helicopter.

 

And if you plan on making them super cheap... inb4 UAV op has a swarm of 10+ greyhawks :D

 

 

I think the current system works fine regarding greyhawks, the 20 or so minute respawn time is sufficient to make them valuable imo

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2 hours ago, Eagle-Eye said:

I probably don't understand what you're saying correctly, but you make it sound as if a pilot would be punished (even if it's just 1 point, depending on how pilots earn points, that could be significant) when he is shot down by a TK'er? I doubt it would be possible to make a distinction, coding wise, between being hit by a TKer, being hit by an enemy or a CFIT?

At the moment the pilot gets the blame for the death of each and every passenger.  I think this is because arma runs into a problem, namely it has 2 people (the guy shooting the GMG at the chopper and the heli pilot) who killed (the guy that's shooting the GMG killed the heli, the pilot killed the people in the back according to arma logic) and 1 of those killers was also killed (the heli pilot was killed by the guy shooting the GMG).  Arma doesn't know how to handle it and just spits out that the heli pilot is the killer and the passengers were killed by him.  Which one of the scripts picks up and displays in chat.  I think it is possible to find a way to fix it but it will probably not be easy.

And coding wise it should be possible to make a distinction between TKers and enemy kills.  You'd just have to check if the killer is a player. (don't know how this would react to zeus, a whitelist could be built in for this.)

 

2 hours ago, Jason. said:

I'm quite surprised you've all suggested removing the greyhawks as a default spawn and making them only available with enough points.

You seem to be missing a critical problem, VERY few people would be interested in playing the UAV op if they only have access to a darter and have to wat 30 mins - an hours to get their first greyhawk.

It makes about as much sense as forcing pilots to buy their first helicopter.

(...)

And if you plan on making them super cheap... inb4 UAV op has a swarm of 10+ greyhawks 

Alternatively the first greyhawk could be free (and maybe even the second) and the one after that costs a set amount of money.  

 

2 hours ago, Eagle-Eye said:

2.2: How would you be able to register this? Does it make a difference if you're driving a Hunter or a Huron?

It could be registered with eventhandlers. This is a piece of code that starts running if a certain thing happens ingame, for example someone getting in/out a vehicle, someone shooting his gun, ...  It's possible but it's not gonna be easy. 

 

2 hours ago, Eagle-Eye said:

Definitely leave the Darter in for all-time use. If used properly, it's a vital source of intel for troops on the ground, and its laser designator can be used for several purposes aside from guiding the Greyhawk's GBU. I wouldn't hide it behind a paywall either, as due to ArmA modelling, it's far too easily shot. I once had a Darter 300m up, 600m from the coast, and it was shot down by a guy with a scopeless Kathiba. When I checked, I saw he only needed 4 bullets to do so...

Don't forget that they are really really buggy, it's a small miracle if i can get a steady lase from them.

 

2 hours ago, Eagle-Eye said:

Given how points may be distributed by time in the AO, I doubt people would be very willing to log off, thereby losing their progress, just to reconnect in another role that's needed at that time.

One way to maybe fix this is by giving people points every so many seconds and maybe a bonus when the AO completes.  

 

Again just my 2 cents.

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