Pilots on EU1 & 2

[Stanhope]

As some of you know, i play as a pilot quite a lot on EU1.  

Recently i got tired of begging people to give me an LZ and decided that i'd wait for people to tell me where they wanted to go before i take off.  Don't get me wrong, i don't expect people to give me a gridref or an LZ straight away.  If they type out something like "AO pls" or "to the AO" i'm more than happy to ask them which LZ because i know that they will most likely respond.  If someone random gets in your heli you can sometimes ask them more than 10 times whether they want to go to the AO or side and they won't answer.  I believe @Eagle-Eye can relate to this, well i've seen him say something similar in sidechat on EU2 a while back.
On top of not begging people to tell me where they want to go i now also turn of my engine whenever i land.  Why? i hear you ask.  Well when i'm gearing up at the arsenal (usually only takes 5 secs but still) i find it rather annoying to have helis idling there.  I also don't see the point in leaving your engine running if you have no clue as to when you'll be leaving.  From experience i know that it could take up to five minutes for someone to tell you where they want to go if you beg them to tell you.  When i don't ask them well i have to say that i read a lot more of my newsfeed on facebook nowadays.  Again, don't get me wrong the second someone asks something in sidechat like "what's the key for earplugs" i'll race others to be the first to respond.  And if someone asks if a pilot could fly in some ammo i immediately ask which type, how much and where.  

But i refuse to beg people to tell me where they want to go.
This has led to some, how shall i say it, interesting stuff happening.  I have people shoot at me in base (which of course didn't work), i have had people steal my heli when i was taking ammo to bring to someone who asked for it.  My bird has been stolen whilst i was activating base AA, people have tried to votekick me, people that left my heli to get into another one got back in just to call me names in vehicle channel, ...  And quite honestly i find most of that funny.  I mean you see a heli with a pilot in it, you get in, sit in the back quietly for 5 minutes, get out to get in another heli and decide to call the pilot of the first heli names?? Why not just say "hey pilot could you bring me there"?  Heck even if you type out a simple "hi" in vehicle i'll reply and ask you where you want to go.  But why should i be the one to initiate the conversation?  I could as well go running around base asking people whether they need a ride.  

 

Alright, enough rambling and ranting.  What do you guys think of this?  Should a pilot have to beg his passengers for an LZ?  Should he keep his engine running when landed at the pads?

[Eagle-Eye]

You're right. I know it all too well.

 

As a pilot, I'm annoyed at how many times I have to ask where people want to go. In general, I ask 3 times via vehicle VON, then 3 times again via chat, and still nobody replies. I just continue waiting until someone finally does, but I've been tempted a lot to just pick a "random location" (read: somewhere in the middle of the AO, where I know or suspect a lot of enemies are) and not care if you beat me back to base...

[Stanhope]

Just now, Eagle-Eye said:

You're right. I know it all too well.

 

As a pilot, I'm annoyed at how many times I have to ask where people want to go. In general, I ask 3 times via vehicle VON, then 3 times again via chat, and still nobody replies. I just continue waiting until someone finally does, but I've been tempted a lot to just pick a "random location" (read: somewhere in the middle of the AO, where I know or suspect a lot of enemies are) and not care of you beat me back to base...

People have told me and i quote: "just fly".  So i did i just flew.  After a while they typed out an LZ 

[Munic]

If they don't Tell me right away i pick the lz that i think is best my self. Sometimes they give me the lz while i am flying and almost there but then it is to late, i stick to my lz. And i try to spread out the lz's, so the ao is attacked from all side

 

[Stanhope]

15 minutes ago, Munic said:

If they don't Tell me right away i pick the lz that i think is best my self. Sometimes they give me the lz while i am flying and almost there but then it is to late, i stick to my lz. And i try to spread out the lz's, so the ao is attacked from all side

Well i personally don't like not knowing where my pilot is going. So i make sure that my passengers know where i'm going and if they don't make a suggestion it won't be far .  
And i also often get that people ask me to drop them somewhere else once i'm on the air.  I'll always keep flying to the first LZ land there and if it's safe i'll look into landing at the LZ they asked.

 

Something related to this, that i find really really funny, happend to me today. I was flying to an LZ i marked, someone in the back asked me if i could fly to the LZ he marked.  Guess where he marked his LZ?  200m east of the LZ i was going to, no real obstacles in the way, no difference in height.  So i just put the heli down smack in the middle of the 2 LZs.  Everyone get's out except the guy that asked for the different LZ, he just asked again if i could take him to his LZ.  I simply answered: "a 100m east of here?" Now i don't expect any high standard of spacial awareness on public servers, but knowing where the LZ you request is relevant to the heli you're in?  I'm ranting again. Note to self: don't stay up till 2:26 in the morning.

[Amentes]

Keep in mind, the safety of the passengers is your responsibility as the pilot, so always be critical when someone makes a request.

 

I rarely see people asking for a specific LZ. In my experience, most people will ask to be dropped at Side or Main, but not anywhere specific.

 

As a pilot, you should be able to judge from your map whether a marked LZ would be relatively safe or not, and given that, you're naturally also able to pick one for yourself.

 

All that said; in the future, if people throw stones or bullets at you, feel free to inform a Spartan, as such behavior really isn't acceptable.

[GamerbugUK]

I gave up asking for an lz, I'd point out a good one behind a hill or behind buildings or trees a safe distance from the AO and I'd get ignored and they'd go wherever they pleased, or a different lz in an exposed position. 

 

That said never flown with you guys. 

[Eagle-Eye]

1 hour ago, Amentes said:

Keep in mind, the safety of the passengers is your responsibility as the pilot, so always be critical when someone makes a request.

 

I rarely see people asking for a specific LZ. In my experience, most people will ask to be dropped at Side or Main, but not anywhere specific.

 

As a pilot, you should be able to judge from your map whether a marked LZ would be relatively safe or not, and given that, you're naturally also able to pick one for yourself.

 

As a pilot, I will always mark at least 3 different LZ's on the map that I know most pilots can manage, and add in a few more that are a bit more risky but manageable with a decent enough pilot. Usually, that leaves about 5 LZ's to pick from, both at main and at side. In the rare case people still want another location, I'll be happy to oblige unless it's a clear death trap, but most can't even be bothered to spontaneously pick a mission, let alone one of the pre-designed LZ's. Why is that?

 

IMO, pilot responsibility stops the moment you drop them off, by the way. Personally, I know I have the skill to land at most, even hot LZ's (damn, that sounds braggy  ), so when people ask to be dropped off in the middle of the AO (which does sometimes happen when people want to join their squad ASAP) I'll definitely consider it. From time to time, I'll deny a request and discuss with them why, but if they insist (because as @Stanhope mentioned, some of the people that do request specific LZ's just won't get out until you're exactly on their marker) or if I can get you on the ground in one piece, my job is done, even if you're shot before you reach the first bush or tree...

 

 

Quote

All that said; in the future, if people throw stones or bullets at you, feel free to inform a Spartan, as such behavior really isn't acceptable.

So what should I do when they start shooting at me?

[Stanhope]

Damn, @Eagle-Eye beat me to it.  But just like him i place down some LZs around the AO all pilots should be able to handle.  Most of the time i stick to 3-4 LZs.  And i don't force people to give me an LZ, if they say something like "to the AO, lz doesn't matter" i'd be happy to take them to the closest safest LZ.  

 

1 hour ago, Amentes said:

All that said; in the future, if people throw stones or bullets at you, feel free to inform a Spartan, as such behavior really isn't acceptable.

Well most of the time when someone shoot's at me i'll simply type out in chat "<name> why did you shoot at my heli".  Sometimes i get a response like "because you left me, come back" but most of the time they just go silent.  

 

37 minutes ago, Gamerbug said:

I gave up asking for an lz, I'd point out a good one behind a hill or behind buildings or trees a safe distance from the AO and I'd get ignored and they'd go wherever they pleased, or a different lz in an exposed position. 

This is why i only fly with pilots i know.  A lot of pilots just do whatever the heck they want, they don't even tell you what they're gonna do.  

[Jason.]

Maybe I went through a similar dilemma when I was first piloting on EU1, but I gave up worrying about the people in my heli a long time ago  

Don't get me wrong, I'll happily discuss LZs with people etc, but if nobody makes any requests then I'll just put them at an LZ of my choice.

They have no right to complain if they don't say anything while in the heli.

[Cebi]

I always ask my passangers where they want to go. If I dont get a response then I announce my intentions. Most of the times they will agree on my plan of ingress. If somebody wants to be droped elsewhere then I ask them to stay in the heli during first landing.

 

I shut my engines if I land as a second helicopter on the pads. This way If your engine is down people will board active helicopter first and when it leaves I will spool up. Most public players consider you inactive or AFK if you have engines switched off.

 

Never had much troubles or missunderstandings with my aproach. Some of the actions I have read above feels wrong to me. Good pilots should understand that they are supposed to support players on the server and provide SAFE transport.

[Stanhope]

3 hours ago, Cebi said:

I always ask my passangers where they want to go. If I dont get a response then I announce my intentions. Most of the times they will agree on my plan of ingress. If somebody wants to be droped elsewhere then I ask them to stay in the heli during first landing.

I used to ask my passengers where they want to go 99% of the time i get no response.  If only the AO was active i'd fly them there but if both the AO and side mission were active i don't really have any way to know to which one they want to go.  So now i just wait until someone tells me where he/she wants to go.  Well not exactly, i wait until someone initiates contact with me,  can be through direct, side or vehicle.  I've had people come into my  complaining about other pilots talked to them a bit and got an LZ out of them.  I've also had people come into my heli not saying a word.  

A comparison: you see a cab at the trainstation and you need to go downtown.  What do you do?  Ask the caby if he can take you downtown or just go sit silently in the back of the cab hoping the caby takes you where you want to go?

If people don't put any effort into getting where they want to go, why should i?

 

3 hours ago, Cebi said:

I shut my engines if I land as a second helicopter on the pads. This way If your engine is down people will board active helicopter first and when it leaves I will spool up. Most public players consider you inactive or AFK if you have engines switched off.

Well, it's not like i sit there like if i'm afk.  I'm constantly looking around, helping people via sidechat, ...  And if i do go AFK for a minute i'll get off of the pads, land my heli near the helispawn, get out of it and say in chat i'll be afk for a minute or 2.
 

3 hours ago, Cebi said:

Never had much troubles or missunderstandings with my aproach. Some of the actions I have read above feels wrong to me. Good pilots should understand that they are supposed to support players on the server and provide SAFE transport.

I do what i do because i try to provide safe transport for them.  They can't go expecting me to draw my ingress/egress route and all related shizel on the map whilst i'm flying.  Definitely not if there are 2 enemy jets in the air.  Heck if i was really concerned about my passengers safety i wouldn't take of if there were 2 enemy jets in the air.  Yesterday (or the day before, can't remember) there were 2 enemy jets in the air.  Of the total of 10 runs (could have been more) i did that day i got shot at by a jet 3 times.  1 jet came after me with his cannon, i managed to dodge all incoming rounds by using nearby mountains/valleys.  The other 2 shot missiles at me.  Both times i couldn't dodge them and got hit.  The first time my bird was empty and i autorotated it down 1.6km from base.  The 2nd time i was over open sea.  I tried to glide towards an island but didn't have enough speed/altitude.  I did manage to hover it above the water for about a second.  Everyone, including me, got out of the heli and managed to swim to the island.

If in the last 2 cases the jet came back and decided to use it's canon i wouldn't have been able to do a single thing.  

And i do try to support players as much as i can, if anyone calls out that they need ammo in the AO, i'll happily take it to them.  If an AO is done and friendly forces are scattered all over the place i'll fly to everyone, i won't land somewhere and wait for everyone to come to me.  

Out of curiosity which actions feel wrong to you?

[Blue-958-]

The reason I keep my engines on when waiting is so that people don't think I'm afk, its all very well staying active in chat but most people won't associate the chat log with the pilot on the pad and that's what probably causes the vote kicks. Vortex is there for the benefit of the ground troops, so decisions should be made on behalf of them, however to that end, if you fly somewhere and someone decides they won't get out, just rtb and repeat as necessary, they soon get the message and if they give you any abuse get hold of an admin. I don't think people not saying anything in the heli is the end of the world, in the end, most people on a public server are there for an hour or so of fun and won't really care where they're put.

[Stanhope]

50 minutes ago, Blue-958- said:

 its all very well staying active in chat but most people won't associate the chat log with the pilot on the pad and that's what probably causes the vote kicks. 

Well, in my opinion, they should.  I don't really care that they don't but they better not complain that there aren't any pilots around when i'm standing next to them.  Happened to me once even though i was typing in direct with the pilot on the other pad, both with our engines off.  It was rather clear that we were pilots from what we were saying.

 

53 minutes ago, Blue-958- said:

Vortex is there for the benefit of the ground troops, so decisions should be made on behalf of them

End i put a safe flight over a lot of flights, which is in my opinion beneficial for the ground troops.  After all if i'd just take off and crash on my way to the AO they will probably lose more time than when i take 30 seconds to mark my stuff on my map.

If ground troops don't like it, most of the time there are 4 other pilots around.  One of them might be willing to just go to the AO with no clue on where to land, which way to fly, how to egress, ...  I'm not forcing anyone to fly with me.

 

56 minutes ago, Blue-958- said:

if you fly somewhere and someone decides they won't get out, just rtb and repeat as necessary, they soon get the message 

Oh i don't hang around an LZ longer than i have to.  If i got a full GH i'll stay at the LZ max 30 sec.  If you're not out you're going back to base with me.  I'm not gonna ask someone to get out more than once.  

 

58 minutes ago, Blue-958- said:

if they give you any abuse get hold of an admin.

An admin can hardly ever do anything about it as they can't check what was said on the spot.  Best they can do is give a warning.  But i record whenever i'm on the servers so sometimes, actually hardly ever, i end up filing a player report here.  I only do that for real bad stuff as it takes away half an hour of my time i could have spend doing something else.
 

1 hour ago, Blue-958- said:

I don't think people not saying anything in the heli is the end of the world, in the end, most people on a public server are there for an hour or so of fun and won't really care where they're put.

Me neither, but they shouldn't expect me to smell where they want to go.  If someone is on for an hour or so and doesn't care where he get's dropped than he can just tell me, i'll be more than happy to put them at the closest safe LZ.

[Eagle-Eye]

All discussions aside, in the end it all boils down to:

A pilot cannot know where his passengers wants to go if they don't tell him. This is true for a single mission with multiple marked LZ's (and plenty of other possible locations), and even more so when there are 3 active missions, each possibly having multiple LZ's. The intended goal of this topic is to hopefully initiate a change in mentality so that people spontaneously tell pilots where they want to be dropped off, without the pilot having to ask dozens of times.

[Cebi]

@Stanhope

I cant agree with you. You say that if passangers cant be bothered to tell/type you their destination then you will not provide transport for them and will just sit on the pad untill somebody asks you to go somewhere? That you have problems to get people into your helicopter when you are landed on the pad with turbines off?

If you meet resistence...maybe you are swiming against the flow. I get it that all that you say is common sense and courtesy but in some games such things can only get you mad.

 

What if some of the players cant understand your language.

PS: You compared your service to a cab driver, but what if players are expecting us to be more like bus, metro or train.

@Eagle-Eye

How will you go about changing peoples mentality? You need rules and game design to support that. Not a topic on a forum which only regulars and people interested in community visit.

[Cebi]

Sorry double post

Edited February 18, 2017 by Cebi
double post

[Eagle-Eye]

5 minutes ago, Cebi said:

 

@Eagle-Eye

How will you go about changing peoples mentality? You need rules and game design to support that. Not a topic on a forum which only regulars and people interested in community visit.

 

Not everything needs to be put down in written rules.

 

"Monkey see, monkey do" is one way, for example. Members of this forum can read this topic and (hopefully) see why it can be an annoyance to a pilot, so next time they enter an aircraft / vehicle / boat they don't pilot themselves, they might say where they want to go without the pilot having to ask. Those not on this forum (both regulars and new arrivals) will eventually see more and more people do this, and (again hopefully) adapt as well.

[Stanhope]

 

17 minutes ago, Cebi said:

I cant agree with you. You say that if passangers cant be bothered to tell/type you their destination then you will not provide transport for them and will just sit on the pad untill somebody asks you to go somewhere? That you have problems to get people into your helicopter when you are landed on the pad with turbines off?

I get it's easy for people to just get in a heli and be taken to the AO, but is it so hard to simply ask in vehicle if the pilot can take you to the AO?  And i'm not really surprised that  people don't get in my heli if i turned the engine of and wait for them to say something.  I honestly find it rather funny to see people get in, sit in the back quietly and get out.  Again, don't get me wrong, i realise that if i just left my engine running i'd get more passengers.  And i sometimes do if i really want to fly.  But is it really that hard to get into a heli and type out something?

 

23 minutes ago, Cebi said:

If you meet resistence...maybe you are swiming against the flow. I get it that all that you say is common sense and courtesy but in some games such things can only get you mad.

What's wrong with swimming against the flow? I realise that i'm doing it and know what kind of consequences it has.  I might have been ranting a bit but as Eagle said, this is intended to change the mentality a bit.  I'm not gonna force anyone to do what i do but i do hope they do it.  Heck if anyone has a better solution to prevent pilots from having to beg their passengers to tell them an LZ i'm all ears.

30 minutes ago, Cebi said:

What if some of the players cant understand your language.

I believe Lone answered a similar question like this in another thread:

On 15-2-2017 at 0:13 PM, Lone said:

In regards to language barriers, the language of ahoy world servers is English, and although we don't discriminate, any issues a player runs into because they don't understand English are theirs and theirs alone.

Hey, if anyone talks to me in either english or dutch i'll understand them and be able to communicate back in the same language.  If they talk to me in french or german i'll understand them and (hopefully) produce something that is understandable.  But as lone said english is AWs language.

 

34 minutes ago, Cebi said:

PS: You compared your service to a cab driver, but what if players are expecting us to be more like bus, metro or train.

Where i live you have to flag a bus down if you want pickup.  Metros and train do stop at every predetermined stop.  But i don't think helis have predetermined stops.

 

36 minutes ago, Cebi said:

How will you go about changing peoples mentality? You need rules and game design to support that. Not a topic on a forum which only regulars and people interested in community visit.

What i do falls within the current rules, what other pilots do also falls within the current rules.  I'm not going for a rule change as i don't want to force my opinion on other people.  I don't mind people sharing my opinion of course, i just feel that if a pilot want's to ask his passengers for an LZ or leave his engine running he should be able to.

 

Oh and i was flying on EU2 today.  At a given point me, eagle and another pilot were landed in the pads (yes me and eagle were landed in the same pad, he was flying a humming so there was more than room enough).  And all of us had our engine turned off.  Now i'm not claiming that this is because of this thread but it's definitely not a bad thing because people get to see that even though there are pilots with their engine turned off, none of them are AFK.

 

And i second what eagle said in his last post.

[Nibbs]

I just fly, if someone asks for an LZ, I'll look to land somewhere sensible near it if it's reasonable. But my ship, my rules.

 

I will typically try to land behind a hill, as close to the LZ as I can, unless I see someone wearing Ghilli get in, at which point I'll take off and land near a sniper vantage point. Frequently if we have a lot of BluFor near one side of the AO, I'll try to get my guys to a different side. (and warn them over VON we're trying to get them somewhere new where they'll get more targets, but at the risk we might get shot down as it's untested - People seem quite happy with this approach)
 

If someone asks for a quad to be slung, I check if they're FSG gunner, and get them to load up the chopper with mortar tubes/bipods, land somewhere sensible, and help set them all up.

 

*** edited addition***

Just an extra point, some people seem to like roleplay on the server. those guys expect to be dropped in the AO, without any choice... They're squaddies, not mission planning.

[Amentes]

1 hour ago, Stanhope said:

What i do falls within the current rules, what other pilots do also falls within the current rules.  I'm not going for a rule change as i don't want to force my opinion on other people.  I don't mind people sharing my opinion of course, i just feel that if a pilot want's to ask his passengers for an LZ or leave his engine running he should be able to.

 

In most cases, your approach isn't an issue. I'm gonna outline an extreme case in which it might be.

 

60/60

2/5 Pilots in Fixed-Wing or two-seat gunships.

 

If I come on and I see two pilots in the air, and you're sitting on the pads with half a helicopter's worth of players standing around, I'd AFK-check you.

 

Presumably, you'd answer that you weren't AFK. I'd then proceed to ask why you weren't ferrying that lump of log-necks.

 

If your answer to that question is "They didn't provide me with an LZ", then I'd basically have to consider you as not doing your job.

 

TL;DR, in most cases, people will go for another aircraft, and so there isn't a problem. But in rare cases, you will be expected to select an LZ on your own.

[Stanhope]

8 hours ago, Amentes said:

If your answer to that question is "They didn't provide me with an LZ", then I'd basically have to consider you as not doing your job.

It's not that they wouldn't have given me an LZ, if they had given me which mission they want to go to i'd already be gone.  It's that they wouldn't have given me anything.  If they'd have said "main pls" i'd ask them if they want a specific LZ or just somewhere around main.  In the case that they'd give me an LZ i'd fly them to their LZ, in the case that they'd said that anywhere around main is good, i'd have flown them to an LZ to my chosing around main.  

 

And on average i type out that i'll fly to wherever my passengers like if they tell me in sidechat once every 15 minutes. 

 

8 hours ago, Amentes said:

In most cases, your approach isn't an issue. I'm gonna outline an extreme case in which it might be.

Another extreme case:  I jump with some friends in a heli and want to go to side.  We type this out in vehicle chat.  The pilot doesn't listen/doesn't care he just takes us to the main AO.  

Now don't go telling me that that pilot did his job better than i who is merely asking people to tell me where to go.  And yes i don't beg for them to tell me that, either they tell me spontaneous or they don't.

[Jason.]

10 hours ago, Stanhope said:

i don't want to force my opinion on other people.

 

I think refusing to take-off unless given an LZ is doing just that.

 

I like what Cebi said:

11 hours ago, Cebi said:

PS: You compared your service to a cab driver, but what if players are expecting us to be more like bus, metro or train.

 

I think this is much more true, most pilots will do their job without requiring any input/destination from their passengers, much like a bus.

Therefore the players (passengers) are used to this system where they can hop in a heli and trust the pilot to take them where they need to go.

 

Sure in an ideal world the pilots could be more like cab drivers, but it's simply not going to happen, there is very little we can do to change the mentality of EU1 players, and that's something you need to accept

[Stanhope]

 

Quote

10 hours ago, Stanhope said:

i don't want to force my opinion on other people. 

I think refusing to take-off unless given an LZ is doing just that.

How am i supposed to know the opinion of my passengers if they don't say anything?  For all i know they are AFK.

 

 

[Cebi]

@Stanhope You are not supposed to know. You can care about their opinion if they annouce it. If not do what you deem the best for overall effort.