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Squad Size


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Kieran - yes, apologies, I am totally echoing your idea.

 

From what I see of the 3cb model, I could totally get on board with that, perhaps changing the AAR to Rifleman to allow for new players who don't want to get into a complicated role.  AR would just ask other players to carry extra ammo.

 

Pero - I think 8 would work because it doesn't overly exceed the shacktac hud size.  We could also disable that list of players from the hud to make it even more tacticool...

 

Lost - I agree, that's a problem, but really, people shouldn't be joining the AWE server and treating it like EU1/EU2 with mods (doing their own thing, not listening to chain of command). The problem is that we don't have so many players that we can afford to be choosy with how the server is run.

 

I would almost suggest that we make AWE a game night only server, except that there are occasionally great times to be had in random events, and also having it publicly available means that players can come in, make loadouts, and understand how the server generally works, as opposed to learning it all during a game night.

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Well @Ryko one of the things I have been thinking about is having game night Saturdays. I have a couple missions ready to go and more coming as I have a lot of time over break and would love along with anyone else in the community make Saturday a game night day much like tvt Tuesday. I think people have been liking my missions so with approval and some help to make interesting missions when I am busy I think it could work. And the system on my game night did work well but idk if it is what we need or is necessary.

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Having only connected to EU3 for the first time ever yesterday, I don't have much weight to put into the balance, but for whatever it's worth ...

 

 

3 hours ago, Ryko said:

The problem is that we don't have so many players that we can afford to be choosy with how the server is run.

 

That depends on what your intention is with the server. If it is to have a more tactical environment than what EU1/2 generally offers, then you have to accept that some people will not be able or willing to make the cut and are thus "not allowed" to connect. This will undoubtedly have a negative impact on the size of your player base, but if those that are in are all like-minded and you get the atmosphere you were aiming for, you have achieved success. Quality over quantity...

 

 

7 hours ago, Kieran Collier said:

TL;DR How can we realistically reduce the workload of ASL and therefore make it a more appealing role?

 

Because of my lack of experience, this may be a bit too simplified, but easiest possibility imo: dynamically disperse tasks, and proper communication. If the ASL is task-saturated, he should assign someone else to take over a certain task for as long as necessary.

E.g. if ASL needs a few minutes to do *insert an ASL task here*, other tasks can be taken over by a TL until he is done. If that means that ATL has to temporarily *insert an ASL task ATL would not need to do under normal conditions*, so be it... (the task dispersion) And then it's up to the ATL to know what ASL needs to know, and what would be nice for him to know, and what he doesn't need to know at all... (the proper communication)

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Having only connected to EU3 for the first time ever yesterday, I don't have much weight to put into the balance, but for whatever it's worth ...

 

 

 

Because of my lack of experience, this may be a bit too simplified, but easiest possibility imo: dynamically disperse tasks, and proper communication. If the ASL is task-saturated, he should assign someone else to take over a certain task for as long as necessary.

E.g. if ASL needs a few minutes to do *insert an ASL task here*, other tasks can be taken over by a TL until he is done. If that means that ATL has to temporarily *insert an ASL task ATL would not need to do under normal conditions*, so be it... (the task dispersion) And then it's up to the ATL to know what ASL needs to know, and what would be nice for him to know, and what he doesn't need to know at all... (the proper communication)

I already like you and welcome to awe. Good points there. Keep it up

Sent from my iPhone using a phone app that is really irritating because it constantly advertises itself.

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15 hours ago, Kieran Collier said:

TL;DR How can we realistically reduce the workload of ASL and therefore make it a more appealing role?

 

There isnt

Every way you gonna swing the squad comp's 1 thing has to happen

Someone will need to controll all teams on the ground and in the air  otherwise it will be a free for all/lets lonewolf server

So in anyway asoon as there is nobody in PLTCO this responsibility will drop down to ASL 

iff he has 2 fire teams 1 8 man squad or watever  he still needs to control the whole battlefield 

 

This is a point wich wont go away in a teamplay server

 

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Hello guys, here is my input. I like Kieran's idea and I will tell you why. Right now I have come to the conclusion that If I am alpha team lead I will most likely be the squad lead at some point. Now squad leading comes easy to me but, If I am a team lead and I head out into the field without a Longrange radio and then SL disconnects. Now I have to either A push on with no comms and let everything fall apart, or B, waste time finding SL's body to take his LR. As of lately I have just said fuck it and snuck a LR as Alpha 1 TL because I know the inevitable will happen. Simple fix is to use Kieran's new Squad organization.

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Don't play eu3 anymore, but this has always been an issue and I think you'll be lucky to find a good fix without the player base increasing. leadership is a high pressure role, most people don't seem to enjoy that kinda role. good luck.

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What about adding a Signal Support specialist to PLT temporarily, which on requests from ASL could be taken and support him as well by letting that guy deal with the long wave. 

This would take some of the chaos ASL normally endures off and could help people to adjust to a part  of the role iself before getting experienced enough to do all. 

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4 hours ago, KPSradical said:

Hello guys, here is my input. I like Kieran's idea and I will tell you why. Right now I have come to the conclusion that If I am alpha team lead I will most likely be the squad lead at some point. Now squad leading comes easy to me but, If I am a team lead and I head out into the field without a Longrange radio and then SL disconnects. Now I have to either A push on with no comms and let everything fall apart, or B, waste time finding SL's body to take his LR. As of lately I have just said fuck it and snuck a LR as Alpha 1 TL because I know the inevitable will happen. Simple fix is to use Kieran's new Squad organization.

 

Interesting that I see a lot of TL's carrying LR radios without ASL asking it and even using it when there's a functional chain of command online :/

When I'm in TL all I want to do is not to have a LR to focus on my job: get my team safe through the mission without chatter in 2 radios getting in the way, usually I even lower the volume on the short range and ask my team to use ingame voice in shouting so we can focus in the enemies instead of nonsense radio messages.

 

If ASL disconnects during a mission, tough luck, I still have a 152 radio and with a quick numpad press in "8" I'm in vortex short range with a good 2km reach and can call him in if necessary. If the distance is bigger than what the SR can get to, then use the android and send him a message :)

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I think that is a great idea as even though it doesn't help fill alpha it is a great team oriented slot, if you are doing cas, and could provide a lot less tension for ASL with air assets. Not the mention the all important (not really) realism factor of a SL would not call in air assets. 

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I think a point that should be raised is also the need for confident and able team leads when you are a SL co-ordinating a large group of players. If you are having to micromanage your teams then it an become impossible. However, if the TL's are able to just sit in on a briefing, or take a generalised order over the radio and then enact that of their own accord, things are much, much easier. I guess you can liken the TL's  at least in this sense to mini SL's, because they can communicate to one another and react to situations and only require direct input from SL on new orders or on bigger picture issues. There are several people in the community who I know as team leads I can say "We land here, tab it to here. This is your objective, make it happen. And they will, this enables me to sit bak a bit, maybe 100-200m and direct the battle on a  wider scale, while maintaining the effectiveness of the infantry. 

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On 12/20/2016 at 3:24 AM, Colsta said:

 

It's because the main SL - usually ASL, has to juggle every single damn team in the game - Alpha 1, 2, Vortex 1, 2, MAT, MMG, Bravo - when he should only have to do so with A1 and A2.

I don't play ASL because of that.

 

That's the best description for me, specialty squads are filled up way too soon to my liking and I can't stand being ASL when I have to juggle two more team around when I personally don't feel the need for them to even be there. Do we really need MAT in an urban area? We could easily convoy into town with two HMMVV and load it with a rocket crate if we were to encounter some baddies. Dying or getting shot isn't a bad thing, we have medic for that and re-insertion is generally not an issue on casual play days.

I'm definitely treading on thin ice here with some who really like the specialty squads as they allow for a good amount of banter, but most of the time they are not beneficial for the gameplay, nor needed for the AO.

That said, I know I can do Plt.Co. or SL roles but I don't find them enjoyable as there's often too much screaming going around over the radios when there's more squads than you should handle. (Eh, my plans are generally very elaborate and sometimes not the best when it comes to approach, but it usually counts for interesting gameplay.)

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Just my 2 cents but if you wanna do it how the US Marines do it in real life then here:

 

Platoon Commander (Example if callsign is wanted: Whiskey 1)

Platoon Corpsman (Whiskey Charlie)

Platoon Field Radio Operation (can basically just be FAC) (Whiskey Romeo)

 

*Note that with Whiskey callsign, the squads would also follow the same callsigns e.g Whiskey 1-1, Whiskey 1-A etc.*

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Squad Leader (Alpha 1-1)

Corpsman (this could be optional as reducing medical loadouts and medical personnel generally improves teamwork and reduces die hard tactics.)

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Teamleader (Alpha 1-A)

Autorifleman (2IC)

Asst. Autorifleman / Rifleman

Rifleman

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Teamleader (Alpha 1-B)

Autorifleman (2IC)

Asst. Autorifleman / Rifleman

Rifleman

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Teamleader (Alpha 1-C)

Autorifleman (2IC)

Asst. Autorifleman / Rifleman

Rifleman

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Pro's:

  1. Grants the squad more options when required to flank and maneuver.
  2. Gives the squad more options when required to defend.
  3. Dependent on how you actually want to organize personnel within the squad, this layout will make you feel more appreciative of what you have.
  4. Gives you a chance of trying something completely fresh, which isn't all bad considering the structure at least in my eyes.

Con's:

  1. Requires more people to fill up a squad, something that seems to be scarce on the server most of the time.
  2. Will require more focus on teamwork and communication (not really a con in my eyes but to most people it is) to make things work smoothly (slow is smooth, smooth is fast), so don't expect to bum rush AO's just because of the increased numbers, that's not how this layout is designed to work.
  3. Some may complain about the lack of choice in this layout but i'm not saying that it has to stay the same, hell, not saying you should even listen to this idea.

Additional forces that would of been nice to see:

Fire Support Group (FSG)

Can be set up however you wish, weapons would include; Mortars, Heavy Machine Guns and Grenade Launchers, TOW Launchers and High Caliber Rifles such as Sniper Rifles and Anti-Material Rifles.

 

Recon Team

A team that's sole purpose is to recce areas, generally most useful for finding suitable LZ's and Exfil positions, would be responsible for returning information to Platoon Command / Alpha Actual for more accurate plans.

*Note that this wouldn't be Clear Team so don't get it into your heads that you can dress up in full black with suppressors in a desert and charge in on your own, yes i'm talking to you core staff.* :AreYouSerious-min:

 

Conclusion: Just my 2 cents here, it's a system that after the years of playing with mil-sim communities (mainly Marine due to my die hard love for them), I feel would work pretty nice if you wanted to test something new, it can bring a new play style to EU3 (at least one I personally haven't seen in 2 years) and will allow for some fun engagements considering the maneuver capabilities combined with the sheer fun of communication required.

 

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I had ton of hours squad leading on Ahoy servers (including modded) and the issue has never been the workload, infact it's always structurally been great, cause SL can move flexibly between fireteams or detach entirely and command at a distance. Problem for me personally was the attitude of other people that made me give up on leading and eu3 entirely. Now im having good time squad leading on game called "Squad".

 

Considered coming back once, but gave up since no one bothered fixing the broken armasync reposetory at the time.

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@Karate Pyjamas I would tent to dissagree about the uselessness of our current fsg groups when it is just a single SL. I find that often times the vechile that is loaded with launchers is often compromised, the regular infantry doesn't take enough AT, there is too much armor, the armor is too heavy, or the infantry simply miss their targets. A specialized AT unit has almost non of these problems as they can reload and relocated a self sufficient squad with ease and bring AT ammo that can deal with all type of armor and infantry. They also sometimes eliminate the need for a single vortex pilot to have to fly CAS. For these reasons I think it is important to keep them alaliable at the same time as alpha to keep armor at bay.

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6 hours ago, JuX said:

Problem for me personally was the attitude of other people that made me give up on leading and eu3 entirely.

 

You're free to remember the past any way you like, JuX.

 

Quote

Considered coming back once, but gave up since no one bothered fixing the broken armasync reposetory at the time.

 

Well this is remarkably helpful.

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@Karate Pyjamas @BenjaminHL So the thing is that armour is always going to be a factor in Gauntlet, and I'm surprised that players are often surprised when it is. With lower player counts it's not such an issue but if you get over 10 players you're practically guaranteed to get at least a BTR or a BMP, and it amazes me to think that players think they can deal with this with just a single AT-4. It's one thing if the BTR is standing still 150m away from you and it's ranged properly, but it's quite another when it's 600m away and laying down fire on you.

 

I'm fully supportive of a dedicated MAT (or even HAT) squad even when Alpha is just a single team - this is why the current exception exists to staff MAT before additional teams.  In planning a mission commanders should definitely consult the task briefing, which shows the estimate of enemy forces - if there's a tank there, they need to bring assets that will deal with that threat, or create a plan which avoids contact with that enemy.  Otherwise it is sure to turn into a disaster.

 

Getting back to the original topic, a potential solution to the command issue that I have been batting around is the prospect of removing the dedicated Alpha Squad Lead role and placing a medic with each team (or rejigging the roles to keep it at five-man units).  Alpha 1 Team Lead would be the functional lead of the Alpha section, Bravo 1 Team Lead would be the functional lead of the Bravo section, etc.  While this may seem like just a re-arrangement of deck chairs what it actually means is that Platoon Commander would potentially be taken more often, as the problem now is that ASL is being tasked to act as PC when there are MAT, Vortex and MMG teams online, and that is more properly a PC function.

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7 hours ago, Ryko said:

 

You're free to remember the past any way you like, JuX.

 

Ryko that is the opposite of remembering.

 

I remember the good times, even the times well before you even arrived in Ahoyworld Ryko. It was well oiled machine as majority of the players in sessions were experienced players. Then during the times leading to my quit from EU3 it had significantly less veterans being active and lot of new members coming in. The inexperience led to major disorder, as some didn't behave. But absolute worst was the constant BACKSEAT squad leading that made me give up the squad leader role entirely. 

 

Even this small comment Ryko. It breeds hostility that is just making me not wanting to come back. As you seem to remember my motives for quitting well better then i do.

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I keep hearing about the golden age of EU3, about how great it was until all the new people came and everything changed. Well everything changes, doesn't it? And if the veterans couldn't keep the new people in check then there's something wrong in that equation.

 

As for your decision to go, I never recall you taking the squad leader position, (before my time, I guess) but I do recall you getting kicked for trying to take a Russian loadout when we were playing Blufor, even after you were advised and warned not too.

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1 minute ago, Ryko said:

I keep hearing about the golden age of EU3, about how great it was until all the new people came and everything changed. Well everything changes, doesn't it? And if the veterans couldn't keep the new people in check then there's something wrong in that equation.

 

As for your decision to go, I never recall you taking the squad leader position, (before my time, I guess) but I do recall you getting kicked for trying to take a Russian loadout when we were playing Blufor, even after you were advised and warned not too.

 

Many veterans had things happening in their lives, which ment less time playing ArmA. Sometimes even over doing things will make things worse. Like i brought up in previous topics is the condescending tone of many of members at the time. After several month break i came back and was treated with immense disrespect, as they thought me to be a fresh player on the EU3. So i knew how the new recruits were treated. Despite community supposing to be more about equality. So im not surprised the situation escalated and is still problem today apparently.

 

I have done squad leading from my early days in EU3 and all they way up to gauntlet. It's not my fault you do not remember me, but im positive there are veterans whom can still recollect me doing squad leading roles.

 

 

I do remember this kicking issue you brought up. As someone had problems with it, i was discussing with him about it's use of RPG13 was it called? Launcher, which highly resembled the LAW / KES launchers, which was my argument as it didn't cosmetically make me look like Russian. As well the fact it was the only light launcher available at the time, as every other launcher was extremely heavy.

 

Other time i was kicked instantly, as i had audio issues. I could hear communications, but ingame audio. So i told i was going to fire single shot in base to test out audio. Moment after shot i was removed from the server without asking why i fired the weapon once. 

 

Hence my argument about the attitude that was occurring in EU3. No one wants to lead people with bad attitudes. Like even now im getting strong bad vibe from you again, as you don't validate any points in my arguments, nor don't seem to believe that i have done squad leading extensively. Not to mention this personally attacking me with "You were kicked once". This is not the way to go.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Still every one is trying to change the Squad's 

But reading every one's post the Squads arent the issue ther setup is fine 

 

What is the issue is that peeple dont like to act as leader for multiple teams

 

Iff we whould use Kieran's prosposed setup we still whould have the same issue Alfa squad lead whould still need to control bravo and vortex mat/hat 

TBH and other composition whould mean the same there has to be a chain off command/some one who takes the final call's

 

This always been a thing and with lower people it often falls to the squadleader instead off the plt commander 

 

For me there is no way we can change it on AWE because the only change you possible could do is let every squad sort itself out unless we got a plt commander and i dont think we whould want that to happen 

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Honestly just advertise the server outside of AhoyWorld. As it stands, and as far as I can tell, we get EU3 players trickling in from I&A by pure chance of them looking at the forums. If we instead had a clear-cut portfolio for AWE and presented it publicly, we could find a reasonably steady supply of new players, some of which are bound to be competent leaders and willing to take on the task of CMD.

I know a number of players who dislike clans and rigid communities with duties and expectations. They would rather join a decent public server with structure, pretty much precisely like EU3; most other such modded servers are run on weekly events only. A 24/7 modded tacsim server is such a huge selling point, I can't believe we aren't using it to our advantage. Add frequent gamenights and a non-bloated modpack (the content of which most players have or know about already) and it won't be any trouble to sell the premise.

 

With some elbow grease and smooth-talking PR, this is easy. EU3 player count is anaemic at best compared to what it could be.

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