Reinstate Weight/Fatigue on EU1-2 and 4

[Guest Luetin]

So this has been out for a while but for some reason we never brought it back onto our servers. So I was largely unaware of just how improved the fatigue and weight system has become. Alganthe said I should check it out and its greatly better than what we have now. Currently on the servers we have weight turned off meaning players can carry as much as they want, but it also means you get that really extreme weapon sway.

 

With the updated weight system you can carry a good amount of weight and this will effect your ability to move around but the optic sway is greatly reduced on how it used to behave. If we put this system back on the servers especially I&A it would benefit in two ways:

1) slow down gameplay as people carrying titans and 10 belt mags couldnt just sprint around as if they are running a 100m race

2) reduce the amount of firepower generally carried making people more careful about engagements.

 

I made a short video demonstrating how it currently works

 

 

[Shadow]

This would be a challenging idea we might wanna test it out on EU 2 see where it takes us. Some others improvements on the gameplay might be that people will now actually be forced to work as a squad. What some people do now on I&A is to just lonewolf it with lots of ammo and antitank weapons with the fatigue system working properly now they'd have to group up to be more effective. Engagements will indeed be a little bit more interesting this way as  they will most likely be a little more thought out in terms of risk towards yourself.

 

 

[Guest Luetin]

22 minutes ago, Shadow said:

This would be a challenging idea we might wanna test it out on EU 2 see where it takes us. Some others improvements on the gameplay might be that people will now actually be forced to work as a squad. What some people do now on I&A is to just lonewolf it with lots of ammo and antitank weapons with the fatigue system working properly now they'd have to group up to be more effective. Engagements will indeed be a little bit more interesting this way as  they will most likely be a little more thought out in terms of risk towards yourself.

 

 

 

Put it this way, yesterday on EU2 I saw two guys standing at the arsenal, I decided to check what they had in their packs (bergens btw). One guys was filled with 200round belt mags RPGS and medic packs. The other was a toolkit for his personal vehicle, again filled to the brim with ammo and medpacks.

 

Not having the weight system when it now works is just damaging the ethics of teamplay and generally degrading the experience that I&A should be. Hopefully we can continue as a community to bring things back to where they need to be which is already starting to happen

[Patrik]

Good ideas and World work well when there are pilots around to bring suplies but like this morning 9-11am when ther is maby one pilot IT makes life realy dificult.

Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[JuX]

The reality is that your are much more effective with few mags, then carrying dozen.

Might as well make them face the reality.

[Patrik]

True true conserve ammo and know your targets. Basic training [emoji3]

Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

[Kyle Clements]

I think one problem with this could be AT teams like Badger Team (represent). We carry missiles on all of us in order to keep the AT and AA launchers fed. And with this put in place it could throttle our effectiveness when it comes to taking down armored vehicles and aircraft. But thats just my 2 cents (pence)

[P057code]

1 hour ago, Kyle Clements said:

I think one problem with this could be AT teams like Badger Team (represent). We carry missiles on all of us in order to keep the AT and AA launchers fed. And with this put in place it could throttle our effectiveness when it comes to taking down armored vehicles and aircraft. But thats just my 2 cents (pence)

I'd look at it as a way to change your functionality as a team. Theres nothing stopping you guys all carrying an AT missile or 2, it just means that you can't carry as many mags or other stuff as before. If you're using a Hunter or a small vehicle to transport yourself and your team round, you will find that you are able to carry a large amount of missiles in that, and as long as you use that vehicle correctly (park behind ridgelines, not showing yourself to EI in areas, being a mobile AT team), you will be just as functional as before. Look upon it as a way in which you could make yourself better.

 

Last Friday, I rocked up using a full loadout (Bergen and loads of mags), which I used on EU2 a bit. However, most of my gaming is done on servers away from AW, where the fatigue system is still in place. I've got loadouts worked out on those servers that are probably just as functional (maybe more functional) than turning up with an LMG and 2850 rounds (this is possible on EU2 ;)).

At the moment, my standard loadout, for any class, is virtually the same, just with some slight differences depending on role, so if I'm Grenadier, I use the GL version of whichever weapon I use (currently, an AK-12), and drop a couple of mags to pick up some 40mm grenades.

 

Experiment, and see what works. The changes to loadouts will come to EU1 and EU2, so you'll find what you can carry will drastically alter, if the stamina system then comes in, at least you're not at a disadvantage.

[Guest]

I think it's something that needs to be thought about carefully.

We already have the restrictions for the backpacks,vests, etc.

 

• Also we already had quite a few people upset by this. I think we should see how it goes with the new restrictions first and act on that and not rush everything at once. Eu3 is there for more milsim type of game play and ofcourse you can do it on eu4 your event your rules (we might complain a little though)
• Keep in mind Arma 3 has gotten allot more popular after that free weekend/week so we have that going what causes that the servers will be full with new players  and randoms who don't know how the people in ahoyworld play. 
• And don't forget you do need the fire power with csat cause they have really good protection and they are with allot more most of the time. 
• Fatigue might also slow it down to much on eu1 and eu2. Allot of people join for fast gameplay couple missions and there off might be 1 hours tops. With Fatigue this might result in not even being able to complete one mission.
• Keep in mind with what you're wearing this would probably not protect you at all. 2 maybe 1  shot to the chest and you're dead. While ai can take up to 10 shots before they go down. 

Don't try to push to much change.

[Cebi]

Since the day I joined I&A it always bugged me that Stamina is partially disabled. I was used to it and in my opinion, it provides better gameplay which is unique. I quickly got the point that EU1;2 caters to players that just want to hop in and sprint around encumbered while wondering why they can't hit the side of the barn.

 

By disabling stamina system you are teaching new players that it is fine to carry 2000 rounds for a machinegun because they don't know that they are penalised by weight without those audio-visual clues provided by Stamina system.

 

I don't see a reason why should we play without Stamina (it was Fatigue before) disabled? You all already experience sway that is part of stamina system but you don't have stamina bar to check when your hands will calm down.

 

Stamina system promotes smart play and educates players what should and should not work. It has nothing to do with MilSim and is part of the base game.

 

Some people will try to advocate reason they have full body armour and 15+ mags with them by saying that AIs this and that. For those, I have only this: GIT GUD!

 

BTW: What about one Hardcore server with no 3rd view and full stamina? Did anybody in past try it? How did it go?

 

 

[IronLance]

"Force people to do more teamwork.."  Not really. If people can't play to their style, they'll just leave. I see it happening in other games all the time.

 

If you are going to limit loadouts this way, you may want to reduce, or even eliminate, the GLOBAL cooldown timer for Ghost Hawk resupplies. Otherwise, when people run out of ammo/ FAKs, they'll start CoD'ing (i.e. respawning to refill ammo, etc.).

 

That said, if fatigue is implemented, then I'll improvise and adapt, as I intend to continue playing.

[JuX]

10 hours ago, D.v.Brandenburg said:

• Keep in mind with what you're wearing this would probably not protect you at all. 2 maybe 1  shot to the chest and you're dead. While ai can take up to 10 shots before they go down. 

 

I wear light equipment regularly and i have sustained multiple injuries on single mission without dying.

As well shot CSAT troops with 7.62 caliber with 1-2 shots. Think it's desync you are experiencing when they

refuse to die, since iv shot AI's with .50 cal and they just twitch and ignore the hit.

[Guest Luetin]

I have seen a few people saying - 'if we were to use the weight system some people would be unhappy and leave' - well you know every time something changes someone is going to be unhappy you cant ever change that, but you have to look at the big picture and how it benefits everyone as a whole not just 1 squad who are unhappy cos they cant now carry around 2000 rounds of personal ammunition with no penalty

 

my counter argument to that is that if these people cant cope with a small adjustment to their loadouts they probably are not coming with the right mindset to ARMA. Also I think a slight reduction in playercount would be no bad thing often the missions are very oversubscribed and this has an impact on the server and how the missions play.

 

Also as I demonstrated in the video it will have little effect on the gameplay but the effect it will have should be all positive. Honestly the best thing we could do is trial it on say EU2 see how it plays and then make a decision.

 

All I can say is that more and more I not only am seeing people abusing the ability to carry extremely OP loadouts against AI who are not very smart. I also am seeing more and more comments on my videos and from community members who are starting to feel that the quality of the gameplay is being impacted by people and squads carrying backpacks full of ammunition and guns they can lay down walls of fire like the MK200.

 

We need to make some changes in my opinion to retain some quality of teamplay. These changes can happen on EU4 and it will be happening there,

 

but I think this change to the EU1 & 2 servers would be positive not just for the existing community but in helping new players understand the importance of balancing their kit. It would also help the pace of the play and just every aspect of teamplay.

Squads all carrying RPG's and LMG's with 2000 rounds of ammunition is not good for anyone.

[SuomenRuotsalainen]

I'm gonna have to agree with Luetin on this one. I think it would improve the immersion and realism of the gameplay, and lead to more realistic engagements. Right now on EU1-2, most people just ask the pilots to fly to the new AO when being evaced from the previous one, instead of having to fly back to base to rearm. 

[xSniper1982]

2 hours ago, SuomenRuotsalainen said:

I'm gonna have to agree with Luetin on this one. I think it would improve the immersion and realism of the gameplay, and lead to more realistic engagements. Right now on EU1-2, most people just ask the pilots to fly to the new AO when being evaced from the previous one, instead of having to fly back to base to rearm. 

 

Honestly I only ever see this happen, in EU#2,  if a team has only just arrived at an AO as it is being finished.
In my experience around 9/10 times players wish to RTB BEFORE going to new AO.

But that could just be down to the fact that the people that tend to be around at the same time as me don't overload themselves in the first place.

[SuomenRuotsalainen]

On 6/22/2016 at 10:38 PM, xSniper1982 said:

 

Honestly I only ever see this happen, in EU#2,  if a team has only just arrived at an AO as it is being finished.
In my experience around 9/10 times players wish to RTB BEFORE going to new AO.

But that could just be down to the fact that the people that tend to be around at the same time as me don't overload themselves in the first place.

Yeah, well, that's what it feels like for me at least. I usually mostly play on EU#1, and I feel like 65-85% (depends on when you play etc.) of the players doesn't give a single sh*t about balancing and carrying a realistic loadout, probably because they just play very causally. But I think it takes away from the immersion and the realism, because as it is now, most people don't really have to think twice before engaging since they have such a substantial amount of ammo. 

[MDCCLXXVI]

There is possibility of a convenient middle ground between full stamina system and no stamina system, since a couple updates.

 

player setUnitTrait ['loadCoef',<number>];

 

For instance:

 

player setUnitTrait ['loadCoef',0];   // will allow the player substantial increase in stamina without it being unlimited

 

Maybe some playing around in the editor with the 'super elite cobra commander main-battle-tank' loadouts people run with, and tweaking the above code, could yield a workable value.

 

Of course, I am with Luetin on this one in that a stamina system facilitates much wider range of gameplay that a mission maker can put together for players, since it is more difficult for one person to disrupt it with their OP gear selection (and most players do choose to maximize their effectiveness using whatever means they can).

 

By the same token, things look different from a server operator point of view, where disgruntled players may take their arsenal loadout to another server instead of adapt to stamina system on yours.

[Jocky]

Yup,totally fixed.

 

This one is just 0 gear (No gps,map,compass,radio,watch)

This one is just a Lynx (No rounds in it)

Just a M320 (No rounds in it)

This is the best possible loadout for a sniper that you can have. (While still having some stamina)

-II-

And i don't even want to start testing other classes (Marksman,AT,Autorifleman)

[Liru the Lcpl.]

As an AT gunner, I fight in my underwear so I can carry my 3 missiles and 3 spare mags with these new changes

#ATLife

[xSniper1982]

As much as I like that adding the Stamina has reduced the number of LMG wielding, Ammo hoarding, Trigger spamming, Bullet wasting reprobates.....

I find it a little difficult to reconcile that with how it affects the players who played efficiently before.

The Stamina does still seem to punish AT, Marksmen and Snipers due to their weapon weight. Not to mention what it does to the EOD teams effectiveness... they need the heavier vest/helmet due to the nature of their role, and with a sufficient loadout to operate effectively they have approx 1bar of stamina.

Add this to the fact that the Priority Artillery/Mortars/CAS runs can suddenly drop a smoke right on a team and they have no option but to RUN... they end up getting destroyed because they can't get away fast enough.

I think this is something that still needs some work, but is definitely heading in the right direction.

[JuX]

4 hours ago, xSniper1982 said:

As much as I like that adding the Stamina has reduced the number of LMG wielding, Ammo hoarding, Trigger spamming, Bullet wasting reprobates.....

I find it a little difficult to reconcile that with how it affects the players who played efficiently before.

The Stamina does still seem to punish AT, Marksmen and Snipers due to their weapon weight. Not to mention what it does to the EOD teams effectiveness... they need the heavier vest/helmet due to the nature of their role, and with a sufficient loadout to operate effectively they have approx 1bar of stamina.

Add this to the fact that the Priority Artillery/Mortars/CAS runs can suddenly drop a smoke right on a team and they have no option but to RUN... they end up getting destroyed because they can't get away fast enough.

I think this is something that still needs some work, but is definitely heading in the right direction.

 

Stamina doesn't really punish marksmen or snipers. Marksmen aren't suppose to hoard equipment and snipers are suppose to setup before engagement, not run around and take quick shots. Supporting their gun on objects, terrain and on their spotter if necessary + Spotter should carry some of his ammo to lighten the load. AT in other hand does get's a bit punished, but for good reason, it's not like missile are light as air to be carried around.

 

What comes to incoming firesupport. Well realistically speaking you ain't really be running anywhere but taking cover instead.

[Liru the Lcpl.]

Screw it, I gotta call it as I see it. No more jokes.

6 hours ago, JuX said:

 

Stamina doesn't really punish marksmen or snipers. Marksmen aren't suppose to hoard equipment and snipers are suppose to setup before engagement, not run around and take quick shots. Supporting their gun on objects, terrain and on their spotter if necessary + Spotter should carry some of his ammo to lighten the load. AT in other hand does get's a bit punished, but for good reason, it's not like missile are light as air to be carried around.

 

What comes to incoming firesupport. Well realistically speaking you ain't really be running anywhere but taking cover instead.

 

What you're describing is a perfect scenario of a spotter and sniper coordinating properly. In that same scenario, AT gunners also have assistant AT specialists that carry the missiles that the specialists can carry to even out the weight load. On a millsim or EU 3 server, I would completely agree this. HOWEVER...

This is EU 2! A server where your enemy is extremely mobile and will immediately start pressing onto your position at a quick rate! you NEED to be at least somewhat mobile to evade your enemy, and GOD HELP YOU if the enemy has artillery!

Seriously, If artillery comes up now, the server becomes UNPLAYABLE unless you have a massive fource to counter them. That force also must be mobile to evade artillery and still have enough firepower to completely take them out. I mean, watch this:
 

HIGHLIGHTS INCLUDE: 2:15-2:45, 8:00-8:30, and 15:10-15:35

Look @Jocky and his pics, especially with his "best load out for the weight" one. O_O is all I have to give to that. Before I made the video linked above there was this other guy, this pub who was probably in the server for the first time, who kept having to go back and fourth from the arsenal and 10 feet away because he either lost an item from the class system of he couldn't do anything past walking, and he wasn't in a ghillie suit and had a Bergen backpack. Nope, he just had a standard class load out on and a field pack, and he could not, for the life of him, figure out a loud out that could suit him. So what did he do? he left. left and most likely will never come back because he'll find somewhere else.

 

On ‎6‎/‎24‎/‎2016 at 3:44 AM, SuomenRuotsalainen said:

Yeah, well, that's what it feels like for me at least. I usually mostly play on EU#1, and I feel like 65-85% (depends on when you play etc.) of the players doesn't give a single sh*t about balancing and carrying a realistic loadout, probably because they just play very causally. But I think it takes away from the immersion and the realism, because as it is now, most people don't really have to think twice before engaging since they have such a substantial amount of ammo. 

This needs to be kept in mind here if these changes are going to be permanent in the public servers. EU 2 is a public server for the casuals, as I have said, and Ahoyworld is supposed to be a community that welcomes all playstyles, right? How are you going to grow a playerbase for casual arma 3 players with such tight restrictions?

 

 

11 hours ago, xSniper1982 said:

Add this to the fact that the Priority Artillery/Mortars/CAS runs can suddenly drop a smoke right on a team and they have no option but to RUN... they end up getting destroyed because they can't get away fast enough.

I think this is something that still needs some work, but is definitely heading in the right direction.

I'm with @xSniper1982 on this one. This is a step in the right direction, but it still requires some heavy tweaking, such as taking base equipment like cloths, vests, helmets,  and all of your other base gear and editing their default weight. Something like a 50% off their base weight so you can at least HAVE a standard military grade load out and be able to at least sprint around in dashes when you need them the most.

 

Just my two cents. Feel free to try to counter but before you do I'll ask two questions from you...
1. Have you played on EU 2 before these new changes and with these new changes?
2. Did you play with a large group of players during server "prime time" or with a small fireteam or even squad sized element?

Seriously, your argument for or against the new changes will solely depend on your answer for those two questions. I guarantee it.

[xSniper1982]

6 hours ago, JuX said:

 

Stamina doesn't really punish marksmen or snipers. Marksmen aren't suppose to hoard equipment and snipers are suppose to setup before engagement, not run around and take quick shots. Supporting their gun on objects, terrain and on their spotter if necessary + Spotter should carry some of his ammo to lighten the load.

 

Ideally yes, this would be true.

However, this is ARMA, the Artillery/Mortars etc. DO NOT take line of sight/cover into consideration, they just auto select a target and begin to fire. This means, even a Sniper who hasn't been spotted can become the target of an Arty strike...

A Snipers Rifle alone takes around 40-50% of his max Stamina.
Add to that a Uniform/Ammo and you have used approx 60-70% of your Max Stamina.
Taking a vest/backpack to HOLD that ammo etc takes another 10-15% Max stamina.
(Note... This loadout does not include FAKs, Sidearm, Smokes, Rangefinder, Headgear, NVGs, Second Optic etc)

If you get targeted by AI Arty you can't just move a few meters and hide behind a wall etc... the shells will follow your path. I have tried it, A few months back in EU#2 on Altis, I ran when the warning of Arty fire was given and did not stop moving for 20secs... Even then the Arty fire tracked the route I had taken and still killed me.

AGAIN I will reiterate this is WITHOUT them having line-of-sight etc. So you cannot just move to nearest cover, you have to KEEP MOVING until the barrage has ended, which with only 10-20% Stamina is extremely difficult.


As I also stated before, I am not saying it should be removed, but there needs to be some adjustments in one place or another (equipment weight/AI Arty tracking etc) to allow for those on the ground that ARE carrying such heavy gear to be able to run when needed.

[JuX]

46 minutes ago, Liru the Lcpl. said:

Screw it, I gotta call it as I see it. No more jokes.

 

What you're describing is a perfect scenario of a spotter and sniper coordinating properly. In that same scenario, AT gunners also have assistant AT specialists that carry the missiles that the specialists can carry to even out the weight load. On a millsim or EU 3 server, I would completely agree this. HOWEVER...

This is EU 2! A server where your enemy is extremely mobile and will immediately start pressing onto your position at a quick rate! you NEED to be at least somewhat mobile to evade your enemy, and GOD HELP YOU if the enemy has artillery!

 

If you dont have a single friend, then maybe you shouldn't be ramboing certain classes.

 

7 minutes ago, xSniper1982 said:

 

Ideally yes, this would be true.

However, this is ARMA, the Artillery/Mortars etc. DO NOT take line of sight/cover into consideration, they just auto select a target and begin to fire. This means, even a Sniper who hasn't been spotted can become the target of an Arty strike...

A Snipers Rifle alone takes around 40-50% of his max Stamina.
Add to that a Uniform/Ammo and you have used approx 60-70% of your Max Stamina.
Taking a vest/backpack to HOLD that ammo etc takes another 10-15% Max stamina.
(Note... This loadout does not include FAKs, Sidearm, Smokes, Rangefinder, Headgear, NVGs, Second Optic etc)

If you get targeted by AI Arty you can't just move a few meters and hide behind a wall etc... the shells will follow your path. I have tried it, A few months back in EU#2 on Altis, I ran when the warning of Arty fire was given and did not stop moving for 20secs... Even then the Arty fire tracked the route I had taken and still killed me.

AGAIN I will reiterate this is WITHOUT them having line-of-sight etc. So you cannot just move to nearest cover, you have to KEEP MOVING until the barrage has ended, which with only 10-20% Stamina is extremely difficult.


As I also stated before, I am not saying it should be removed, but there needs to be some adjustments in one place or another (equipment weight/AI Arty tracking etc) to allow for those on the ground that ARE carrying such heavy gear to be able to run when needed.

 

Think your issue with this is the fact you think .50cal is the only sniper rifle in the game. I was able to make 50% stamina available on

ASP sniper rifle (average rifle), 75% on lightest sniper rifles and 20-25% on .50cal. Sniper doesn't need backpack, he doesn't need considerable armour if any. So if you need that extra gadgetry you need to downgrade your main weapon.

 

Also DONT forget, if you break line of sight with the AI. They will still fire at your last known position.

I was reminded on this, when i engaged them in the dense jungles of Tanoa.

 

 

[Liru the Lcpl.]

17 minutes ago, JuX said:

 

1 hour ago, Liru the Lcpl. said:e

 

If you dont have a single friend, then maybe you shouldn't be ramboing certain classes

 

     I agree completely with you, but again, I have to throw this in here: "this is EU2" 

 

Its a public vanilla server with some allowed mods and plugins. If you heavilly restrict it too much to promote realistic gameplay, you're ALSO going to have negative externalities, such as a lessened playerbase. Too short of a playerbase and, as I said and showed before, some operations within the server become borderline impossible.

 

Not everyone joins I o a server with friends. Some people join into a server to do their own thing, supporting others, some join to find friends, etc. It's a range. 

 

Also, not everyone's going to want to be a "support role" ESPECIALLY on EU 1 or 2 (go look at the chopper repair thread if you don't kown what I mean). It's already hard to have a pub take a repair specialist role, so imagine how freaking hard it will be to ask someone: "hey, can you outfit your auto rifleman role or squad leader role to be me assistant AT Specialist or assistant autorifleman role? There's no way in heck a pub would do that: they're just there for the action themselves.

 

ON TOP OF THAT you're going to have to be WITHIN THEIR ROLE TO TAKE AMMO FOR THEM because of how the new gun system works. You have to take the weapon to then bring ammo for it but if it's not in your class it will be removed. Imagine asking an AT Specialist to just bring missiles for you because if they brought a launcher themselves you'd lose out on an extra 2 missiles to bring. Have that go for you.

 

Gotta think long term and all of the issue lay. I'm curious to see how these changes will affect new people coming to play on EU 2. Only time will tell

 

Sent from my phone with a beach side view.

[xSniper1982]

51 minutes ago, JuX said:

Think your issue with this is the fact you think .50cal is the only sniper rifle in the game. I was able to make 50% stamina available on

ASP sniper rifle (average rifle), 75% on lightest sniper rifles and 20-25% on .50cal. Sniper doesn't need backpack, he doesn't need considerable armour if any. So if you need that extra gadgetry you need to downgrade your main weapon.

 

Also DONT forget, if you break line of sight with the AI. They will still fire at your last known position.

I was reminded on this, when i engaged them in the dense jungles of Tanoa.

 

 

You shouldn't going making assumptinons about other people JuX...
Especially ones you've never played with.

I use the ASP on Tanoa, not the Lynx.
I have multiple loadouts for Tanoa (with the Stamina system)
We've been testing different loadouts for quite some time now, as we tend to stick to minimal equipment and work as a team.

FYI, the ASP Kir, is a Specialist Weapon for Close-Medium range combat 200-400m... not for a Sniping role.

Not many people tend to run as Spotters, they all want to be Snipers, and therefore, Snipers do have to take things that they wouldn't usually need to... like Rangefinder/more Ammunition.
IT IS A PUBLIC SERVER and therefore people can't always rely on others, ESPECIALLY when the server is less populated.

PLEASE READ FULLY before responding also - I was talking about the ARTILLERY/MORTAR LoS, not the Infantry.. I clearly stated that in my post.

I suggest from this point on you don't act all high-and-mighty with your replies, and instead read, digest, take the information provided into account, if you don't know someone elses play style, do not make assumptions and talk down to them, because guess what... THEIR opinion is just as valid as yours.

Final note.
Not everyone coming to AW servers is going to have a group of people they know and trust well enough to rely on, and will therefore play the game until they get to grips with it, and make new friends within the community.
Making it difficult for those NEW players is going to impact how things run.

These are just the views of some players, myself and others, on things that should be looked at in order to keep AW as a 'go-to' place for players wanting a fun and inclusive experience from ARMA.

Trying to belittle such opinions and invalidate their information and suggestions only leads to a more exclusive and restrictive community, which is not the aim of the staff here at AW.