EU1 & EU2 NOTICE TO PILOTS RULES ARE CHANGING

[Blue-958-]

What about adding a dedicated recovery team? We all know how crap repair specs can be at their jobs and this may reduce the waiting time for pilots that have been shot down, its a public server after all and no-one want to waste excessive time after a crash which may have been inevitable.

[Cyrus Wolf II]

I believe these new rules should be adapted to other classes, not just Vortex - 

 

For example, i for one am a huge fan of the sniper class ( and pretty damn good i might say ) and to lose such a vital asset to a player who has no understanding or skill with the class is a huge annoyance, 9/10 times im on Ahoy, both sniper and spotter combos are not working together, the sniper has some god awful loadout and the spotter wants nothing to do with him or the spotter is no where to be found. Same goes for many classes.. Uav/ Armour support ( not a class i know ) but still some more major assets need to apply to the rules as swell.

 

i know this post isnt about agreeing/disagreeing with the vortex, but in a way im agreeing with the rules and extention of them that needs to be added for more seriouse gameplay on Ahoy... because atm, its pretty awful at times

 

But as the Vortex goes - The idea of not blowing up the chopper is a great idea, but i dont believe is great the flow of the gameplay, say 3/5 choppers get downed, fresh AO, AA pilot is doing nothing... gonna take a while to fix and tbh alot of people having to wait, blwing up the chopper isnt "realism" but for the purpose of the game, needs to happen. if this goes a head then maybe, as suggested above, give the helicopters more health, less fuel loss and a more realstic damage model, not 1 single AA which detonated 5m behind hitting flares and the choper is down.

 

Also how will all this be enforced? 24/7 admins watching the pilots,i dont think so... maybe add some community element, regular players can vote to kick a pilot out there slot? 

 

there is my essay, hope my opinion counts for something

 

Cyrus Wolf II

[xSniper1982]

TL:DR Version-

I'm not saying I don't agree with SOME changes to the rules, however, I think what has been proposed is a little too harsh, and will negatively impact the better/more patient players more than the bad ones.

 

 

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Full Version.

 

 

 

Also how will all this be enforced? 24/7 admins watching the pilots,i dont think so... maybe add some community element, regular players can vote to kick a pilot out there slot? 

 

there is my essay, hope my opinion counts for something

 

Cyrus Wolf II

There already is a Vote to Kick system in place.
It's just that most people either ignore it, are unaware of it, or spam it.

It's been used quite well in EU 2 on a number of occasions, however it doesn't prevent the removed player from immediately returning.

The only people I can see really being affected by these changes are the Regulars who are good at what they do.
Poor pilots will often be asked to give up a slot after a certain number of mistakes/faliures, and better pilots will replace them.
However with the new rules, the good pilots will have to wait longer to get their vehicle back, whereas the bad/troll pilots will just leave when there's none left.

We've all seen it, someone jumps into the server, grabs a helo and rams it into the next one, then respawns and does it again.
With a longer respawn time on them, all it is doing is rewarding trolls.

I do love he idea of improving the Teamplay/Community aspect of the game, but as was said in an earlier post by raz,
"Instead of adding rules, lets encourage a change of attitude."

This isn't just something for the Admin to work on, this is something that the Community as a whole are trying to help achieve.

Let's teach people how to use the Vote to Kick system, let's inform them of what's acceptable, and work together to improve the situation.

These rules could potentially prevent players from improving in a role they might be interested in.
It's all good telling people to go somewhere else to practice, but where are they going to go, that they would get the same experience as actually flying in the combat situations here in Ahoyworld?

I practiced on my own for a while, and it bored me to death, then I chose to practice in Ahoyworld servers a little later on when it was quieter, and have become a much better pilot.

 

[zissou]

 Also,considering the workload to monitor this and keepin it up will take far more than this will achieve in the long run imo.And about the chopper  turrets,wouldnt it be easier to spawn them with "locked" guns by default?init line ftw

It's not going to be easy that's for sure but we're trying to instil a more proactive attitude towards piloting on the servers so the intended results should be worth the effort. It's not a huge issue the turrets and admins have methods of finding out who the door gunners are it's simply making the pilots captains of their ship. We want to see proactive pilots taking ownership of their responsibilities and not using the helis as throwaway as they are being used now.

Is it possible to script it so the helos don't pretty much automatically lose fuel when they are damaged? I believe it would be in keeping with real life tactics for pilots to blow up a helo thats in danger of falling into enemy hands? I would maybe consider rewording some of the rules a little, right now it reads pretty harsh, and doesn't take into account that combat flying by definition is dangerous.

The fuel situation is one we're looking at and exploring several different possible approaches to avoid what would happen in your example. The list of rules in the OP don't actually contain anything new it's just that we're going to readjust how we enforce them going forward. To avoid a heli falling into enemy hands would not be a likely scenario if a landing site away from the ao was chosen. Yes combat flying by definition is dangerous but at the same time a pilot with a less than 50% successful landing rate is not a good pilot in peace or war.

Two examples of flying over the weekend to show where this change is coming from:Server restart pilot that we had had our eye on joins as pilot again and starts bigging his game up. "get ready for some awesomeness" "you're going to be amazed by my flying". Server comes up and he immediately breaks his tail rotor on the hescos at spawn of course not his fault. He continues flying crashing more often than not. Players while not left at spawn are not getting any gameplay other than a view of the inside of the chopper and a fiery death. Pilot flies over active ao. Pilot gets shot down. This is the exchange:Me:What happened?Pilot:got shot down M:why? P:got locked on? M:why? P:cause they're missilesM:No because you flew over the ao P:doesn't matter M:don't waste assets please P:it'll respawn straight away. This is what we want to weed out. Now let me tell you how I envision the future. Two pilots one gets his engine blown out but manages to land safely, he calls out on the radio for help pilots in the air ask have they a repairman on board, if yes they divert (if safe) to the crash site and both helis are in the air. Same scenario but no repairman answers Mohawk at spawn picks up (as yet unannounced) small repair Vic and drops it near the downed heli heli is repaired and on its way.

[Someone]

There is lot to be said here, things I don't have time to say now. I will try and return to this thread later today, tomorrow or whenever possible.

I consider myself a quite capable pilot, but this will still affect me alot. If this is implemented the way it's suggested I most likely won't ever fly on these servers again.

Before making such a huge change, I at least advice you to try and talk and listen to some of the regular pilots.

[kman]

As just a passenger I certainly like when pilots are more careful when approaching AO. Logging on and dying 3x in crash before I reach AO for the first time is total turn-off.

 

But the idea with pilot siting by the damaged heli and waiting for refuel, I don't see that working.

 

Yesterday I was on repair specialist class and Huron I was in took some beating and landed, I repaired it immediately and pilot thanked me, but then reported that it has no fuel. So we blew it up. Air-lifting fuel cistern to the damaged heli is - in my humble opinion - nonsense:

 

* You are risking second chopper. (The Buzzard will not care you are on mission of mercy)

* You are risking another pilot.

* You now have TWO helis out-of-rotation, prolonging waiting times for everyone on server.

 

1) Partial solution would be - if it can be programmed in - to remove fuel-leakage from the game.

 

2) Even better would be: allow pilot class to carry Toolbox. If they know they can repair, they would try hard to make safe emergency landing.

You might say it makes repair specialist obsolete, but I think that class only makes sense if you log-in to become part of vehicle/boat crew anyway.

[P057code]

2) Even better would be: allow pilot class to carry Toolbox. If they know they can repair, they would try hard to make safe emergency landing.

You might say it makes repair specialist obsolete, but I think that class only makes sense if you log-in to become part of vehicle/boat crew anyway.

 

Thats an idea, or at least something that way. Make it a 'single shot' toolbox (if such a thing exists), so they can RTB with the damaged helo, and at least stay in rotation. The 'infinite fuel' idea, won't really work, as you'll get some pilots then who'll just spend a large amount of time attacking targets (in the case of Pawnee) or loitering over the AO.

[lexota]

Before making such a huge change, I at least advice you to try and talk and listen to some of the regular pilots.

i think those guys are more than happy to help in this situation. This is a hard nut to crack and will take time. I like the idea Zissou and in an ideal world this wouldnt be of any problem unfortunatly it isnt and i also fear that it is very possible to do a great deal of damage.

 

like Harald said, it would be good to talk to other pilots. Maybe you could schedule a meeting about it on TS3?

 

Allways willing to help but i am not a pilot

[Jason.]

Thats an idea, or at least something that way. Make it a 'single shot' toolbox (if such a thing exists), so they can RTB with the damaged helo, and at least stay in rotation. The 'infinite fuel' idea, won't really work, as you'll get some pilots then who'll just spend a large amount of time attacking targets (in the case of Pawnee) or loitering over the AO.

 

I don't think kman was suggesting "infinite fuel", but rather to disable fuel leakages as a result of taking damage. So helicopters will still use fuel from normal flying around etc.

Also, I don't think I've ever seen a Pawnee pilot survive long enough to need to refuel...

[P057code]

I don't think kman was suggesting "infinite fuel", but rather to disable fuel leakages as a result of taking damage. So helicopters will still use fuel from normal flying around etc.

Also, I don't think I've ever seen a Pawnee pilot survive long enough to need to refuel...

 

Oh, yeah, forgot that a Pawnee can be brought down by someone sneezing near it..

[zissou]

Do you as a pilot needlessly waste helis by picking poor lzs, not checking the map or unable to land. If the answer to these is no then this change won't make much of a difference.

Most of the pilots regularly on ts and that I know to be good pilots have nothing to fear.

As just a passenger I certainly like when pilots are more careful when approaching AO. Logging on and dying 3x in crash before I reach AO for the first time is total turn-off. 

This is exactly the situation we want to get rid of three out of three crashes is simply unacceptable. As said before the fuel issue is not going to be the show stopper it is now.

[kman]

Do you as a pilot needlessly waste helis by picking poor lzs, not checking the map or unable to land. If the answer to these is no then this change won't make much of a difference.

Most of the pilots regularly on ts and that I know to be good pilots have nothing to fear.

 

Many shotdowns are also caused by very strong enemy air presence -> Buzzard, Neoph and Kajman.

 

This has been discussed in another thread i believe - opfor Air Force can feel rly OP unless you have very competent Buzzard pilot - so it all hangs on just one person, who can't be everywhere all the time. Taking down Radiotower helps, but with your transport helis being supressed, it can take considerable time to take it down.

 

Ideally you would want to run this as real military OP, where your fighter(s) would establish air superiority and then the helis would come in - but that is something for EU3 not for EU1/2 I think.

[Kirk76]

pilots flying to side/ main when all or all but one or two passengers requesting otherwise should be disciplineable.

[Anyone]

1) Partial solution would be - if it can be programmed in - to remove fuel-leakage from the game.

Me and "insert name" (dont remember who) discussed a neat idea that would fix the fuel problem but it might be hard to implement, jerry cans!

like on the wasteland servers where there are jerry cans you can carry around and refuel vehicles, then either the pilot can have 1 or 2 jerry cans in it's inventory (just enough to RTB) or the engineer can have one in it's backpack

 

like i said, it's probably is going to be really hard to implement but it is a suggestion.

[PotatoHead]

One problem with Repair Specialists fixing the helicopters, the tail is still too broken for most people to fly with or land safely at base.

 

It goes something like this;

Me: Fixed it!

Pilot: Thanks Potato!

-spin up and lift off, starts spinning around..

Pilot: I got this! (back to base we go and fix the rest, GG, no problem)

OR

Pilot: WTF is this?! Potato you lied!!1 It's still bro.... (pilot died)

 

The main reason i stopped playing as a Repair Specialist, people don't know how to handle a heli with a half working or broken tail.

I've lost count of how many Hummingbirds i returned to base with broken tails on the old EU2 (EU4).

Sadly Ahoy can't fix this.

 

And then the fuel problem, is it possible to add 5-10% fuel (if empty or below X%) to the vehicles at the end of the 'repair'?

So if it drains the pilot/driver can still get to a safe(er) spot and get fuel.

[PiranhA]

The main reason i stopped playing as a Repair Specialist, people don't know how to handle a heli with a half working or broken tail.

 

I know quite a few who can handle the half fixed helo. Brought quite a few home (and find out another helo was parked on the repairpad without pilot).

[zissou]

Many shotdowns are also caused by very strong enemy air presence -> Buzzard, Neoph and Kajman..

 

That is true and a scenario that will have to be taken into account perhaps a reduction in the number of enemy jets?

 

a neat idea that would fix the fuel problem but it might be hard to implement, jerry cans!

 

As said before the fuel issue will be taken care of.

 

the tail is still too broken for most people to fly with or land safely at base.

 

Landing without your tail rotor back at spawn should not be beyond the skills of pilots they don't need to land it on the repair pad but it's a skill that should be expected of pilots not the exception.

[TheScar]

That is true and a scenario that will have to be taken into account perhaps a reduction in the number of enemy jets?

 

[Guest Bartlett]

Over the last while we have noticed a trend on the public servers of piloting getting steadily worse. One way pilots, constantly crashing pilots, pilots abandoning aircraft, pilots unable to land to list but a few of the issues. These rules changes will not affect competent pilots.Pilots are in charge of their aircraft they should make all efforts to keep the aircraft airworthy.If aircraft are damaged they need to be fixed, not destroyed. If this means getting a repair specialist to travel to fix the aircraft so be it.  Flying in a manner conducive to having you aircraft destroyed will result in discipline.These rules will be enforced and pilots will be expected to abide by them.The respawn time on Aircraft will be increased to encourage better flying. They will be coming into effect on 01.04.16Pilots seen to be breaking the rules will be asked to leave the pilots slot in which case they should return the aircraft to spawn and switch roles. If they refuse they will be kicked and if we see repeat offenders we will be forced to ban. Examples of Poor Piloting:

1. Misuse of aircraft: CAS with the AA jet, practising, showboating and wasting resources.
2. Landing too close, or flying over, the AO. It shows the pilot is not aware of the situation around him and if it results in the lost of aircraft or team mates will considered destroying assets or teamkilling.
3. Abandoning aircraft in the field, this is all to prevalent and steps will be taken to weed out pilots who do this.
4. Making no effort to repair damaged aircraft.
5. Allowing your door gunners to teamkill. It's the pilot's responsibility to lock turrets. Teamkills will be attributed to the Pilots.
6. Pilots should make a reasonable attempt to land if damaged. For example engine failure or tail rotor loss are not unrecoverable. If you don't know what autorotation is you simply should not be flying a helicopter.
7. Not repairing aircraft in the field. If your aircraft is repairable then it must be repaired.

While these are not technically new rules they will be enforced much more actively, and it is the pilots responsibility to make sure you are able to fly within the rules. For any possible scenarios not mentioned here or indeed any questions about the rule change please feel free to add a comment. 

Although it is a good idea and it should be done that way I have to be bluntly honest.... its not gonna happen

NOT unless you enforce all player slots and I'm sorry but I have spoken to admins as in as high up as ryko (sorry dude only name I can remember) and it has been stated that ahoyworld is a community. ... that is all.... this is not JSOC and we cannot police our servers 24/7

Their word's not mine so doing this will not work without several things

1, a dedicated admin with rights to the servers

2, a chain of command, nobody will listen to a pilot as 'they don't have authority'

3, structure. ... like eu3 you need teams (working within the chain of command) instead of to many rambos running about like it's call of duty 5

4, anyone can carry charges, why not force it so EOD is the only ones allowed to carry them.

Although I started on EU1 and 2 before moving onto the much much better server eu3 I have to state nobody on there works tactical and your idea is tactical.....

Sorry for being blunt.... I really do like the idea But without an entire rebuild of the server and it's gameplay that is not possible. ...It will only piss people off thus loose future players thus loosing potential donators? ???

[zissou]

1, a dedicated admin with rights to the servers

Not really sure what you mean by this, we have admins on EU1 & EU2?

 

2, a chain of command, nobody will listen to a pilot as 'they don't have authority'

 

Pilots have a great deal of authority as they can land where they choose to land.

 

3, structure. ... like eu3 you need teams (working within the chain of command) instead of to many rambos running about like it's call of duty 5

 

Why would an EU3 like structure have any bearing on this?

 

4, anyone can carry charges, why not force it so EOD is the only ones allowed to carry them.

 

I'm kinda lost on this point what would that achieve in regard to the issue being discussed here?

[Gripe]

> That is true and a scenario that will have to be taken into account perhaps a reduction in the number of enemy jets?

 

I'd rather have *more* enemy air, perhaps that would give enough reason for some AT guys to carry AA launchers. Almost nobody uses them now. Maybe less jets and more helos though? Or maybe there could be a separate AA squad section?

[Cebi]

Disregard: edit I missed that liftable vehicle will be provided. Make it please under 4t in case it is the Huron which needs repairs. Otherwise i like those rules.

 

First thing: I am very new to your server so take following with that in mind.

 

I always try to save my bird. I have E-landed and was in need of repair on 3 ocasions during past 3 days.

 

1. On first ocasion one of the survivors riged my Huron with c4 and put it out of missery. I then proceeded to LZ in hopes of evacing myself back to base, but got in firefight along the way and died while draging wounded to medic.
2. I droped off troops at LZ after some buttclanching flying with Neophron on my tail. As i was leavin LZ and gaining speed i got hit head on by what i guess was unguided HE rocket while my airspeed was around 120kph (Zeus has some serious aim) and was forced to autorotate heavily demaged bird. I then marked my position and requested repairs and refuel. Zeus then took pity of me and repaired and refueled my Huron.
3. Flying with my Huron full to the brim with infantery to new AO i was holding loose formation with Mohawk. Mohawk aprox. 3 cliks south from Agia Stemma diverted to east side of mountain while i maintained my south aproach for small goat farm half up the south face of the mountain. As i was aproaching and started to bleed my speed, Kajman apeared over the ridge of Agia Stemma and engeged me by burst of 30mmAP. First burst killed my engines. I E-landed at the base of mountain without casualty. Bird was out of fuel and heavily damaged. I proceeded to mark my position and anounced in chat that i need assistence. No one responded. After while Kajman flew low over my downed Bird but he payed no attention to me, so i tried to provoke him with my 45. Vector. He mockingly left. Then after two or more minutes came AT missile or rocket which killed me and destroyed my Huron. It came from south direction which was unexpected and i contributed that too to the "mercy" of Zeus.

After that i studied what i can lift with Huron. Sadly it is 10t which is less then HEMTT support trucks weights. So my questions is if the rules above are enforced should i as pilot try to reach next LZ to hitch a ride back to base and then bring HEMTT fuel and then HEMTT repair by driving them there or is there some support container which is under 4t weight (Mohawk sling load capacity)?

[Hubrisz4]

I really don't think more rules that require enforcement is the route to go. Yes these are bad behaviors you want to address in the interest of the community, but I think addressing them will have more negative impact than the benefit it would net you. We all want top class pilots, the reality of course is it is a public mission - so every now and then a nub pilot joins and things go tits up. There are enough choppers generally for people to get to the AO so it is not really a problem..

 

Pilots also take risks to get troops on the ground as close as they want, sometimes they get punished. It happens, but it is a shared risk.

 

Ultimately it is a philosophical question about realism and we have to choose one end of the spectrum or the other. If this is going to be a public mission, then it needs to be somewhat arcadey. If not, then sure put it on Veteran difficulty and have at it full mil sim style. Trying to occupy the middle ground is neither here nor there and just frustrates people I think. I fear enforcing this type of thing would make piloting a chore and we would produce offenders and less Super Snakes. Just my 2c.

[fir_nev]

Why not we give this new ruling a trial period? Say two weeks? If operations are normal, then make it permanent. During this period, we take feedbacks via the forum.

 

If any new pilots we see struggling during take-off/landing, like me, we will tell them in side chat to choose another class and practise flying in the editor.

 

Enemy anti-air is one thing. We have yet to discuss friendlies who shoot at choppers just to disable them. PiranhA and many here (myself included) felt the pain last evening.

 

Thoughts?

[P057code]

After that i studied what i can lift with Huron. Sadly it is 10t which is less then HEMTT support trucks weights. So my questions is if the rules above are enforced should i as pilot try to reach next LZ to hitch a ride back to base and then bring HEMTT fuel and then HEMTT repair by driving them there or is there some support container which is under 4t weight (Mohawk sling load capacity)?

Unless an 'Offroad Repair Vehicle' or something like that is provided, or a Pilot gets to carry a toolkit (although, they are in the helicopters most of the time anyway) so that he can effect his own repairs, then there may be a problem, unless the guys running as Repair Specialists are top notch.