Reidy Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Recently, and ever since the including of the Apache on the gauntlet missions I have quite often found myself at base, with no form of transport to get into the AO after death or joining in progress as the only pilots on have taken the Apache into the AO. The idea behind the pilots RTB when someone needs transport in theory would work however its very easy to miss a connect message or a man down in a intense firefight therefore leaving someone at base with no means of transport. I have nothing against the use of the Apache, in fact I am in favor of the Hell-fire Apache over the ground suppression Cobra on Panthera as we need the support against the vehicles, not infantry usually. However it needs to be implemented well to not hinder the effect on the infantry in the form of wiping out all targets or using our only pilots which could Am I the only person who has witnessed this? Has anyone got any ideas other than a new rule regarding the CAS Apache's? As this has caused me to disconnect on many occasions as I simply didn't want to sit at base until Vortex needed a re-arm to realize there were people requiring transport Thanks, Kieran Colsta, SkullCollector and ParabolicAJB 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoonFire Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Definitely agree you should only be able too use the Apache when there are two sets of pilots online Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostDragon Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 if you are sat at base you are within your rights to get a LR radio and contact the pilot or command element and request a pickup. This notifies everyone that needs to know that there is someone on the ground needing assistance. lexota, Amentes and Plant1ing 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reidy Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 if you are sat at base you are within your rights to get a LR radio and contact the pilot or command element and request a pickup. This notifies everyone that needs to know that there is someone on the ground needing assistance. Yes I agree and have done this on occasion, however if a new player encounters this? They may only of just learnt the SR radios let alone the LR Radios. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryko Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 In my opinion the CAS Apache can only be used when there are at least 18 players. First pilot at 9, for transport operations, or one-man CAS if authorized by command, and the second pilot at 18 (the co-pilot can be player 17). But either way the priority for pilots needs to be player transport, simply for all the reasons Kieran has indicated. Having CAS support is a luxury, and is not the default state. A plan that is often created involves transporting the players in, and then the pilot going back to base and swapping aircraft to take out a CAS bird of some kind. The problem with this is of course when the players start dying and need to be ferried back to the AO. It's not impossible with the Little Bird, which can carry 2 players in addition to the pilot, but in the Viper or Apache, it's not possible. - R Origins, Plant1ing, Reidy and 2 others 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant1ing Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 In my opinion Apache or any kind of CAS shouldn't be used without CMD JTAC. They rely the message to actual SL/TL in the field of needing aerial assistance. The Rules on EU#3 states that we need to fill up Alpha (12). After Alpha it's Bravo (12). Alpha and Bravo don't need to work together or approach AO at same direction. You also need at least one Pilot (1- I'd argue that bigger birds need at least two if not whole five men crew (UH-60)). You also need PltCo(1) and PltMed(1) (hi numbers, hi risk) to fill up before JTAC(1). That leaves 28 players minimum before filling second pilot team as two-men crew for flying Apache. If we involve 8-ground per pilot, it fits with 27 ground assets if first pilot crew consists of only a Pilot. I know that following the rules by the book leaves little or nothing to maneuvre. Players on EU#3 constantly bend the rules. Sometimes they comply after being caught. Sometimes they argue. I don't have problem driving a boat on Sahrani for example to other side of the island. The problem is, some players don't like to wait to shoot one guy or get shot instantly. Arma3 is different kind of game than COD. There are no stats. There isn't best player of EU#3 server. Even if we do TvT your "best player" will probably get killed by new player. That's the beauty of Arma. A timeless moment to calculate the surrounding environment but, no time for comprehend actual environment. Sometimes I wish we lock only to advanced flight if we can't lock to first person view. You'll see nobody behind the cockpit anytime soon. Now, where is my rotary wing? @Kieran Collier I've seen CAS pilots teamkill, leaving NATO/US vehicles everywhere on battlefield unattended, doing reckless flying and endangering passengers, nades, salads and whatnot; I mean absolutely everything. Don't get alarmed. We have amazing guys who don't lack discipline. Which are a lot of them on EU#3. I find playing with them really pleasant and enjoyable. Reidy and ParabolicAJB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryko Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Having read Planting's post I agree that JTAC (or someone acting in that role) should be mandatory for having CAS support. - R Reidy and ParabolicAJB 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkullCollector Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Is there an option to disable CAS bird respawn if a certain player count threshold hasn't been met? If we then leave the pre-spawned aircraft untouched, they are still ready for use in an emergency, but will have to be handled extra carefully as their loss would be permanent. For flavour, perhaps consider this a deal with battalion high command, that our platoon will only get heavy assets if the threat warrants it and calls for a fully manned operation. Until then, resources are saved for another day. This wouldn't irreversibly keep us from having CAS if we're just one or two players short, but also add a bit of risk, thus preventing recklessness. Mostly, anyway. If not for Gauntlet, perhaps for Valiant. Considering the infil method, it's even more authentic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryko Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I could certainly engineer something that allows the Platoon Commander to spawn heavy assets. ParabolicAJB and Colsta 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reidy Posted March 12, 2016 Author Share Posted March 12, 2016 I could certainly engineer something that allows the Platoon Commander to spawn heavy assets. That would be a really good idea, however how about when there is no Platoon Commander but an Alpha Squad Lead in charge of multiple assets and need that heavy support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryko Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 I think I can create some game logic that can figure out which player is the highest ranking officer; in the case of ties, Alpha wins. The minimum rank to be acting PlatCo will be Lieutenant (ie., ASL). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentes Posted March 12, 2016 Share Posted March 12, 2016 Problem with limiting the Apache to 28+ is that we rarely have those numbers on regular evenings. It's not uncommon for us to have one and a half squad, but not have any proper AT. Often Riflemen forgo or forget their single-shot AT, and we end up with no ability to deal with enemy BMPs, let alone MBTs. To me, it seems more like we need Leaders to be more attentive and ensure that the transporting happens when necessary. Alternatively, single-seat aircraft, as I've asked for in another post, is a good solution to this problem as it frees up the CoPilot to fly his own bird. GhostDragon and Plant1ing 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plant1ing Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Higher the player base equals to higher number of enemy presence at the AO which leads to CAS presence more required. Like @Amantes the officer in charge needs to stress enough to his platoon/squad/team what equipment they need to carry. EU#3 states play your role. Play your role and you should be fine. Amentes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParabolicAJB Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 I regularly see people trying to slot as Talon just to get in an attack chopper regardless of how many players are on or more importantly if CMD has approved it. I like Plant1ng's suggestion, as this could help mitigate the issue of CAS pilots ignoring transport requests for more pew pew in the AO. It would also funnel the use of CAS to higher player counts as JTAC can only be used with a PlatCo. I would also add that I feel a similar setup is needed for Hammer/Torch. It's no fun being infantry when there are lots of heavy assets in the AO with low discipline. I think Amentes raised a good point about AT, but it's an issue that needs to be addressed directly rather than allowing CAS to cover a gap left because infantry are neglecting their duties. Regards, Alex. PS. By 'CAS' I was excluding the AH6 (which can carry two passengers) as this can be used effectively with lower player counts ferrying between base and AO. Reidy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amentes Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 It's not always that simple though.Lately we've seen a lot of infantry, upwards of 20, but if nobody takes MAT or HAT then there's still a problem when the T90's roll up.I've personally saved a lot of asses by ferrying in copious amounts of fresh AT or by laying down some A-164 funbuns.Short of forcing people into the "proper" AT positions, what else is there?EDIT: On an iPad, it seems to have raped my post structure >.< EDIT 2: And then magically fixed it after the fact. Also wanna point out, I've encountered another "issue" a few times, namely when the ranking officer tells the pilots to go John Wick on every piece of armor in the AO before the infantry has even left base. Don't do that shit. Especially not when there's an AT squad on. Colsta and Ryko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryko Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 Right now the enemy forces spawn in proportion to the number of players. Less than 12 players, there is only a percentage chance that a tank or APC will spawn. So for small games, a HAT squad or CAS bird isn't strictly necessary (players with AT, especially these OP NLAW launchers, should be able to take out a single tank). In larger numbers, tanks and MEC will spawn, meaning having a dedicated MAT/HAT/CAS element is a good thing. Frankly I think I will also look at providing an intelligence breakdown at the same time as the mission is spawned, so that players have a sense of what kinds of assets they should bring. Going into the AO without any kind of intel isn't really realistic, either. - R Colsta and Amentes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razgriz33 Posted March 13, 2016 Share Posted March 13, 2016 This is in response to the OP I'll say firstly I find it's more of an attitude thing. for example earlier today (i won't name any names in specific because that would be unfair on the poor asshat) there was just a horrible "I don't care about you, what you think, or what the plan is" attitude coming from a particular pilot. So no matter how many rules or what specific rule set you want to enforce it will always roll back to the person behind the controls. If you have a pilot who is switched on and has the interests of his team at heart you'll find that he will actively switch into whatever role is required. Should he or she detect that there is a logistical problem then he or she would hopefully react accordingly to keep the team's momentum up and the same goes for if he or she detects that ground assets require hard targets knocking out. You can set as many rules as you like but it won't remedy this stinky attitude. Make a point of leading by example if you are a frequent pilot, if you detect that a pilot isn't so switched on then tell them, simply put they're going to end up ruining your game experience and (as you've done already) make you not want to wait around at base for them. Finally if you still see problems as a last resort, shadowplay them at their worst and report their stinky attitude in confidence to an admin. Colsta, Ryko, SkullCollector and 4 others 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk76 Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 i think the apache should be restricted to talon. vortex is strictly logi. talon is CAS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-958- Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 This isn't true, Vortex and Talon have no determined role, its the CO's decision on who does what. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colsta Posted March 14, 2016 Share Posted March 14, 2016 i think the apache should be restricted to talon. vortex is strictly logi. talon is CAS. As Blue said, completely false. They are solely callsigns. They are pilots. Just because one has a more aggressive connotation to it does not mean it has to be CAS. If you're suggesting the Apache be restricted to one team of pilots and not the other, well... that doesn't solve anything at all. There's only one Apache, so it's naturally restricted to one team at a time. Which one doesn't matter. Reidy, Tylermaniac and GhostDragon 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostDragon Posted March 15, 2016 Share Posted March 15, 2016 As Blue said, completely false.They are solely callsigns. They are pilots. Just because one has a more aggressive connotation to it does not mean it has to be CAS. If you're suggesting the Apache be restricted to one team of pilots and not the other, well... that doesn't solve anything at all. There's only one Apache, so it's naturally restricted to one team at a time. Which one doesn't matter. Would be different if other callsigns were used but vortex and tallon are both just generic air element callsigns, If one was ugly, for example, this would be CAS in the British airforce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razgriz33 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 i think the apache should be restricted to talon. vortex is strictly logi. talon is CAS. This isn't true, Vortex and Talon have no determined role, its the CO's decision on who does what. what you've done there is instead of responding to his opinion, you've just stated what is actually happening at this moment. I guess what he was suggesting was rigid structure to ensure one transport and one cas (If i may elaborate on what i think you were saying kirk) My opinion as stated above would be not to add rules but instead change the attitude and look at WHO is being an asshole in specific and then question their motive as to WHY he or she isn't being effective in the slot. This is something members can even do themselves. 1. Notice the foul attitude or poor gameplay of the pilot 2. Record outbursts of attitude or poor examples of gameplay (we all have our off days don't forget) 3. Approach the chap and ask with regards to the attitude or perhaps suggest some time in the editor 4. If no change, report to eu3 moderator with any recordings as a last resort GhostDragon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-958- Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Didn't read the last two sentences as opinions, Colsta still makes a good point anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
razgriz33 Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Didn't read the last two sentences as opinions, Colsta still makes a good point anyway. No worries But again, colsta makes a fact about the now and no resolution to the OP. I hope none of you take offence I respect you all for discussing this in a civilised way on the forums. Again my resolution (to stress my point) was not to add rules but to change attitudes. Reidy, Blue-958- and GhostDragon 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fraggloid Posted March 19, 2016 Share Posted March 19, 2016 I can only agree with what's been stated, really. Due to the size of the maps we're using most often now, helicopter based transports are nigh-essential. Everyone likes to have CAS available, or to fly CAS, but often it's not needed. It's difficult as PlatCo to provide plenty of action across and AO for both ground forces and Air-based units, especially if there's a period where transport isn't required, or if you have both an AT team and a CAS bird up. Ryko's statement regarding the scaled AI encounters is useful; I actually didn't know this was a thing. It's all good carrying a few disposable launchers as Alpha, but I've witnessed a few occasions where we've hit an armoured target 6 or 7 times with varying launchers, and it's still been active. This didn't seem to occur before we added CUP, so I'm not sure if it's related to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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