Effective Combat Ranges

[SkullCollector]

Follow-up thread for the off-topic discussion in here, because I think it brings up an interesting point.

 

What do you think should be the farthest combat range to be effective at? I'm talking about something like a prerequisite skill set that team leaders can expect from their fireteam so we have a safe, pre-determined combat effectiveness for the average player.

 

From my experience on EU3, a lot of contacts are either avoidable or soft up to about 600 metres, and the real heat only ever really happens down at 300 and below. MOUT is obviously an exception.

 

Also, please use 5.56 weapons. Be realistic, don't grab a SCAR-H and hope everyone thinks it's a SCAR-L.

[Minipily]

To be honest, you're completely right already.

 

Like you said, a lot of contacts that you don't need to take as an immediate threat all lay around the 600 and up range while compromising contacts are usually around 200-300 and yeah, MOUT operations are usually a shoot on site deal unless the aim is to get in silent and ensure a surprise attack.

 

In some cases though, a fire-team can be fairly efficient upwards of 1km if the Autorifleman and if available, Marksman are highly skilled, but generally, a fire-team SHOULD NOT be engaging targets up to this range as a Autorifleman's effective range is about 600-800m while a Marksman's is around 800m, a little short from that 1km mark. Best bet is to hold fire and allow time for the enemy to get closer, than let it on em.

 

As for 5.56, I completely agree but understand that people will not listen, nor want to be "realistic". If you want to play realistic, come talk to either me or Johnson who you will see regularly on the TeamSpeak and EU3, we try to stick to a more hardcore approach on EU3.

 

I think a lot of people think bigger is better in terms of taking 7.62 which is absolutely wrong, the RHS M855 and Mk318 rounds are perfectly capable of dropping a Russian with at least 2-3 shots to the chest and remains a lot lighter than a 7.62. As for 7.62 against Insurgents, that's just silly. The Mk262 is also good but better for longer range engagements than the previous rounds due to it keeping it's velocity and is usually used in SPR rifles.

 

Seems like a good thing to bring up, hope I answered anyone's questions.

[MessedUpSmiley]

A regular fireteam's ideal engagement range depends on the terrain for me. Whenever moving closer than 600 meters - which would be the maximum range for fireteams without marksmen for me - isn't safe. You just waste a bit more ammo than bandages to take the enemy down.
Whenever moving closer is safe enough; I'd say move up to a distance of like 300 meters and try to hit the enemy from there. Which would be ideal range for me. People don't take too many precise bullets and are still perfecty able to engage the enemy.

I'd say 100/200 meters is a bit too close for comfort.

CQB however - like in Fallujah or in Zargabad - is great, but in those situations you would want to avoid head to head confrontations, but peek corners and take them down one by one.
 

Like Mini said; we have a couple of guys who want to play more realistic than the rest. Which is perfectly fine of course - as long as you stick by the rules.

However; this works the other way around too. I see why people might get frustrated over others not living up to these realistic situations and running around with Designated Marksman Scopes and 7.62 rifles, therefor a couple of "guideline tables" have been set up. If you ever see someone not living up to these guidelines, feel free to tell them and link them the post.

If they are still unwilling to change their loadouts, call a staff member. Don't crop it up and get frustrated more and more.

That last sentence doesn't only go for loadouts, if their behaviour or anything else is wrong and irritating you, talk about it to a staff member.
We don't want anyone to feel bad, because of other people not abiding by the rules.

[Karate Pyjamas]

I try to keep engagements between 250-600 anything closer is less than comfortable, if anything is really close, for example you're both near the top of a ridge or mountain I just tell my fire team to lob grenades over the top. There's no need to get up close when you have perfectly fine M67 grenades at your disposal. Same goes for compound clearing and room clearing.

 

Anything past 600 meters can usually be ignored, I really only engage them if they are shooting at me.

 

About calibers and rifles. Follow the guidelines, and try to use as much stanag mags as possible so they can be shared when needed.

Remember, EU3 is for serious gameplay, if you're going to dick about in base or anywhere you're most likely going to end up getting banned. So don't tell veterans of EU3 to "loosen up a bit" because they do live by the rules and you're the one obviously breaking them if they need to tell you off.

[Jochem]

The 5.56 vs 7.62 has long been a topic for debate on military forums. But since the arguments made their don't translate well into arma, I'll just say what I think about it.

First of all, I completely agree with that 7.62 is overkill against insurgents. It's like firing the abrams gun at a t-34. 5.56does the job just fine.

Against Russians however, I feel 7.62 is superior. Yes you won't have as many rounds, but your rounds are more capable at penetrating a bulletproof vest and killing then a 5.56 round. So when playing against Russians, I might take a scar-h (before you bring up the play your role post, both scar variants are allowed). But I won't hide it and if my ftl tells me to grab an m4 because he needs me to carry extra ammo or something, I'm totally fine with that.

One last thing, this Belgian loves his Belgian weapon so I might me a bit sided on this. But if ever gets decided the scar-h can't be used anymore, atleast I'll have the scar-l.

[SkullCollector]

Obviously, in terms of firepower and range, the 7.62 is immensely superior to the 5.56. So I'm going out on a limb here and wager most of the arguments against it come from us milsim evangelists. 7.62 is more expensive, heavier, bulkier, louder than 5.56, which arguably also makes it more fun for the shooter. But only while shooting.

Considering the trend of hauling 15+ magazines into a standard operation, I wouldn't want the extra weight on my belt. The less I can run, the slower my whole team will be, as I'm the weakest link in the chain. Adding to this that I might also use a magnifying scope on my 7.62 rifle, the sway from my heavy breathing won't make matters any easier.

 

In my mind, it's not the diameter overkill speaking against large calibres, it's that a lot of players don't know moderation. Especially with the way stamina has been implemented lately, marching lightly is more important than ever. So when it comes to weighing the odds, I'd take flexibility over increased optimal range any day.

[Jochem]

I think 8 magazines of 7.62 is enough for an AO, and you should never put magazines in a backpack. For me, the point of 7.62 is that you don't need as much ammo as you would using 5.56. But I completely agree with you that most people take way to much with them.

[Ryko]

Why no magazines in a backpack?  Makes it flexible for other players to just take one out rather than you having to give them one.

 

I think 8 magazines of 7.62 is enough for an AO, and you should never put magazines in a backpack.

[MessedUpSmiley]

Why no magazines in a backpack?  Makes it flexible for other players to just take one out rather than you having to give them one.

The way I do it is set up a basic loadout without a backpack (which will be my rifleman loadout) and derive all my loadouts from that one. So all my magazines will automatically be in my vest and not all spread out.

[GhostDragon]

i agree with everything here, i do however expect a target to be able to be brought down at 700m if required its a last resort but if it is needed i do expect my fire-team to be capable of it.

[Ryko]

People need to remember that bullet velocity decreases over range.  I don't have exact figures, but a 5.56mm round is much less lethal at 700m than it is at 300m.  So, more rounds are needed to take down a target, unless you get really lucky, or have the right gear to put the round exactly where you want it.

[Amentes]

Personally, I don't really care what calibers we use.

 

I care that we can share mags, and that the Marksman is using a higher effective range weapon/ammo combination than the rest of us.

 

Function over form, as it were.

[DerRoteKoyote]

7.62mm     600m for the Lmg at least to 800m if you use a marksman gun

5.56mm     300-400m Stormrifle (STEYR AUG/usr is a beast on range of 300m and closer)

 

That i learn in the army and how we use the guns,

if you use a M2(we call it üsmg) you have a max range of 1km

but you should use it for not more then 800m but shoot on 800m with iron sights

 

and we had only 5 mags, one in the gun 4 on the vest

[DakimDragco]

Giving my own experience as a marksman, my best range of engagement is around 600m max, after that i need time to prepare and a nice range table to setup my scope so it is zeroed right. Why 600m? Well thats because up to that range, i can use standard sights setting relatively easy to engage targets effectivly, without having to zero the scope.

 

So 600m max for a single unit (Teamlead + 4 fireteam members give or take) is pretty good estimate. Now i find engaging up to 800m is perfectly able, but anywhere beyond that your wasting ammo at a way higher rate then is viable considering what you kill. It can take a single rifleman 1½ clip just to take out 2 or 3 men at that distance. Considering normal ammo load would be between 8 to 10 clips, thats a huge chunk of ammo for so few threats eliminated.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[Ryko]

It's also worthwhile considering keeping your position concealed vs. the low hit/kill percentage plus potential waste of ammo.

As a SL /TL I'd probably just want to log the Intel of the enemy position and use it to maneuver to an effective position, rather than begin any kind of engagement.

[GhostDragon]

i am just wanting to clarify my previous statements regarding this issue. 

 

when i say 650+ this means that i would analyse the situation get into a better closer position to initiate a gun fight. 

 

However i do expect if we are under fire/ being engaged actively that my fireteam can put accurate fire down on the enemy. 

 

i understand that i didnt make this clear in my last posts so wanted to clarify. 

[Kirk76]

id say max (effective-ish) combat range for the riflman rifles (i.e m4, magpul, MX, scar L ect...) is about 600 meters with an acog and some good aim.

[Magrice]

Still new around here, but I don't really feel comfortable engaging anything further than 600m with 556 rifles, sure it is safe(er) but it just doesn't feel quite as enjoyable purely from a gameplay stance. I also find that I waste more ammo than I care to when doing so despite being perfectly capable of both spotting and engaging enemies at that distance. The only time I prefer the 400-800m ranges is when I am using an LMG as you have both the ammo and what feels like a longer effective range, although that could be placebo.

 

I don't really know at the end of the day if your SL or FTL tells you to engage from X distance you do, the longer you play with the same squad of people everyone gets to know how everyone else likes to play resulting in instructions lying close to the squads strengths as a whole. 

 

All that said, I do like your rule of enforcing 556 for realism. It does seem like it fixes an issue which I hadn't really thought about prior. How many mags is too many though? I like to take the one loaded and then 3-4 reloads if the mags are 30 round, so between 120 and 150 rounds total, but that still weighs less than 2 MG belts total.

[Colsta]

All that said, I do like your rule of enforcing 556 for realism. It does seem like it fixes an issue which I hadn't really thought about prior. How many mags is too many though? I like to take the one loaded and then 3-4 reloads if the mags are 30 round, so between 120 and 150 rounds total, but that still weighs less than 2 MG belts total.

Around 6-7 extras is fine as well. Personally, I carry six reloads and one in the gun, and can keep my weight below 30kg, even with a light AT launcher.

3-4 might not be enough unless you're very conservative about your ammo, like I am. : P

[Amentes]

I usually pack 8 reloads for Alpha, 4-6 for any Support team.

 

3 Frag, 2 White, 1 Blue as Alpha, reduced to 1 Frag + smoke if Support.

 

Grenadiers and Lead roles I add extra colored smoke.

[GhostDragon]

Yeah 600 is plenty far enough to be engaging from due to the damage drop off but the rco sight has markings to 800 so with this sight there is no reason one can not hit to that distance with a rifleman weapon (raising the point of why do rifleman have such high powered scopes)

I usually take 7-9 mags of 5.56 with Me and find this plenty but unlike some I do carry a sidearm with 2 spare magazines for if I do run dry.

I usually carry a little more smoke than others (2 white, 1/2 green, 2frags) but this is so I can mark lz for choppers as I often play a FTL role.

[Pastry]

600m max for me too with ARs, ideally around 350 to 400m though.

 

However, I find alot of the time that people are content to just sit at that 600m range and plink away at enemies and then complain that they aren't dying. It's much better to advance to contact to a range where your bullets are actually going to do something, around 350 to 400m is good.

 

I realise that alot of the time it just isn't viable to advance from cover to where there is none, but if it's possible then this is where coordination and effective bounding really help to sway the outcome of a firefight in our favour. If there is no cover for you to fire from from an effective range, then it may be possible that your direction of attack is wrong (or it's just a really open map, which is possible).

 

TLs should focus on bounding and fireteam movement if under fire to get into more effective engagement ranges.

[Amentes]

Keep in mind, the scope, realistically, shouldn't be the only factor in hitting at 6-800 meters; the weapon itself also makes a huge difference. This is part of why I consider the HK416 to be a pretty OP weapon, as to my knowledge it's the most accurate 5.56 weapon, on par with several of the 7.62 marksman rifles.

 

As it stands, we do fire plenty of rounds at 600+ that simply don't hit, aiming true or not, so I don't really consider using ACOGs to be an issue in that regard.

[Arkod]

Keep in mind, the scope, realistically, shouldn't be the only factor in hitting at 6-800 meters; the weapon itself also makes a huge difference. This is part of why I consider the HK416 to be a pretty OP weapon, as to my knowledge it's the most accurate 5.56 weapon, on par with several of the 7.62 marksman rifles.

 

As it stands, we do fire plenty of rounds at 600+ that simply don't hit, aiming true or not, so I don't really consider using ACOGs to be an issue in that regard.

 

I've tested some things in the Arsenal and the results are rather interesting.

 

In general, SMA weapons - HK416, HK417, MK18, M4A1 - have similar or even identical ballistics between themselves and are comparable to CUP m110, which is a Marksman rifle.