Multiple channels per squad - A trivial thing

[joshheartcher]

First of all I know EU3 is not a "Mil sim" server, and this is very trivial I just want the best experience for everyone and a good old discussion.

 

So I've been gone for a little while with little activity, I've come back in the last few days to find that people in general have been using multiple channels for each squad, e.g.    General-100  Alpha1-110 Alpha2-120

 

In the past (to my knowlage anyway) when the server has a normal player count only one frequency is used, and in some low player count situations where less than a squad e.g. only alpha 1 and alpha 2 were on seperate channels were used.

In my opinion having seperate channels is just complicating things for people forcing them to set up alternatives and also forcing teamleads to have to communicate every thing to there fireteam. (Although this may be a good thing). Anyway this all depends on how the squad lead or command element wants to do it and I respect that.

 

Whats your opinion? How do you do your squads channels, and why?

Again this is a very trivial topic and should not be takin to seriously.

 

Have a good day! (or night) 

 

***EDIT*** This may be in the wrong subthread 

[razgriz33]

Hi there, this topic is widely debated and the short answer is:

There's no rule either way to make it friendly for the squad leader to decide.

 

Personally when I'm leading regardless of size all of Alpha is on one, all of Bravo is on another, all of MAT is on another.

If there's no JTAC and i'm platco i'll even have the aircraft in on command common.

[Minipily]

I agree with what Raz says, it is completely up to the Squad leader and team leaders.

 

In my eyes, having everyone on one frequency can get a bit hectic, especially when a Alpha 1 rifleman calls out on the radio a contact on the other side of the AO to Alpha 2, they dont need to hear it.

 

I usually use the two team with 1 channel for leaders, it's how I do it and it's how it's usually done in reality to my knowledge.

 

Once again, its up to the leaders what they want to do, to be comfortable is to be efficient.

[Ryko]

My thoughts on this previously - http://www.ahoyworld.co.uk/topic/4565-the-radio-channels-discussion-topic/

 

In short, neither system is perfect, especially for players who haven't played together extensively.

 

It's probably easier to stick everyone on the same channel if you're dealing with new players.  But that essentially takes away any role for the Team leader, other than being a fallback if the Squad Leader gets killed.

 

-R

[joshheartcher]

My thoughts on this previously - http://www.ahoyworld.co.uk/topic/4565-the-radio-channels-discussion-topic/

 

In short, neither system is perfect, especially for players who haven't played together extensively.

 

It's probably easier to stick everyone on the same channel if you're dealing with new players.  But that essentially takes away any role for the Team leader, other than being a fallback if the Squad Leader gets killed.

 

-R

I really shouldve checked for another post..... XD

 

Oh and again http://www.ahoyworld.co.uk/topic/4557-questions-suggestions-and-holiday/

[Icy]

  But that essentially takes away any role for the Team leader, other than being a fallback if the Squad Leader gets killed.

 

-R

 

 

I agree with what Raz says, it is completely up to the Squad leader and team leaders.

 

Once again, its up to the leaders what they want to do, to be comfortable is to be efficient.

 

-M

 

First of all I know EU3 is not a "Mil sim" server, and this is very trivial I just want the best experience for everyone and a good old discussion.

 

In my opinion having seperate channels is just complicating things for people forcing them to set up alternatives and also forcing teamleads to have to communicate every thing to there fireteam.

Above some quotes which I completely support.

 

Could you describe to me how it is complicated? What you are describing is actually great. Or do you mean, its complicate for someone who joins the first time?

Perhaps if those lessons that are being made at the moment get pushed through ( I believe they are being worked on by some fine gentlemen) we can show everyone that it`s ( in my opinion, ofcourse) a GREAT addition as it promotes specific squad and team roles, and makes team leads essential, as well as squad leads!

[Amentes]

I dislike the two-channel squad system.

 

Team Leader is a very low-level leadership position, and more often than not they lead by example. When they die, their team loses radio contact.

 

In my opinion, being a good Team Leader is about being a good individual player, and far less about being a good strategist. That's the Squad Lead's job, and it's why he's not on the front of the line.

 

I've never understood this idea that information critical to Alpha 1 wouldn't be relevant to Alpha 2. If that was the case, they're spread out too far from eachother.

[Karate Pyjamas]

Both systems work, but it all comes down to proper radio discipline. If regular grunts would keep quiet for most of the time it solves a lot of issues. I have adopted the multiple channel system to get rid of a lot of the chitchat happening. As a SL I can't have all the FT chatter while trying to listening in on the Command LR. As a TL I find it preferable to use the multiple radio system so overzealous members of my FT don't just start running towards the new objective when commands radios it in. I want them to regroup, sitrep and then make the next move.

 

But in reality it's just how experienced your squad is and how well they work together as a whole, something which will take some time, considering the new amount of players, which I honestly enjoy seeing. I've seen regular week nights with full PltCo and full Alpha and sometimes even a full Bravo.

[MessedUpSmiley]

Allow me to note down a couple of rules before I start:
http://www.ahoyworld.co.uk/topic/3556-eu3-rules-and-guidelines-please-read/

 
14. Radios are not for chit-chat.

• Please keep radio chatter to a minimum. If you have to talk do it LOCALLY.
• No two squads on the same shortwave channel.

4. Listen to the Chain of Command.

• This quite simply means if command tells you you’re not allowed to fly CAS at this time. Please do not go fly CAS. Just use common sense and listen to what your commanding officer is telling you.

 

One single frequency per squad, that's how we've always done it and that's how it should be done. There is no point in splitting the radio up and give every single fireteam a seperate frequency.

 

Even if it was to keep the chit-chatting out? Why not just tell them to be quiet and read the rules or if they give irrelevant information tell them to try otherwise next time. If they still won't listen, why not contact a staff member? Remember, we are here to make sure you guys have the best experience possible and to remove people who block you from getting that experience.

 

Direct orders from the Squad Leader would simply take too long to be followed up, as the Fireteam leader has to repeat them, now might the fireteamleader be uncounscious, KIA or still at base; a link in the chain of communication is lost and the rest of the fireteam the FTL in question was part of is left in the dark about what's happening and going to happen.
 
To point out what Mini said, there is no point in A1 AR shouting out contact over radio, if it doesn't concern A2.
The correct way would be for the AR to shout (yell) contact over local, make sure the FTL is aware and let him report it in if necessary. It would not be to split up the radio frequencies as then, might the report from the FTL be necessary A2 - apart from their FTL - will also be left in the dark.

The teamleaders are never to be seen as equally expendable units as riflemen are, they are the people making the calls in their fireteam and they do make crucial decisions.
Squad leaders shouldn't go too much in depth, as in 'Hug that rock'. That should be the FTL's job, he should be coordinating the team in more depth than the squadleader is.
The squadleader should therefor stay way more generalised and treat his two fireteams as 2 individual units who can move (to cover), engage the enemy and much more.
He should however, leave the any short-term decisions up to the FTL, who can; if done correctly. Inform his entire team of this decision over local chat and does not always need to speak on radio, unless he thinks it might be valuable for the rest of the squad to hear.
If the squadleader however screws up in his decisions, the FTL is there as the last beacon of hope; who could make the crucial decision which will keep the entire fireteam alive.

 

Amentes is spot on with what he says and is there a place where I can submit his last line for quote of the year?

 

On what Karate said;

'SL can't have FTL chatting when he tries to listen to command'

For a moment, screw the rank system and think, could what your FTL has to say be much more important and involve any input you have to make in a much smaller timeframe? People could die if you don't hear what your FTL says. He's basically your eyes and ears in the frontline.
Just simply say 'break' over LW, hear your FTL out, make a decision if necessairy, relay it to others if necessairy and then radio CMD back in to repeat what he had to say.
Remember the order's he's going to give you or the questions he's going to ask you lose their motive as soon as your entire squad gets whiped.
 

If overzealous members of your team run off, shout at them; call them back and tell them off. They should listen to you as the objective SL has given your FT might seem good in his eyes, but you might have a better way of archieving that objective. Which is coherently with what you want to archieve with the whole regrouping and sit-rep'ing.

 

Still, seeing there's no rule about it the people in command (see rule 4) are still free to decide if they would rather go for one or multiple channels.

[GhostDragon]

im personally in favour of what ever works for the squad and ftls at the time if they want to run it seperate i personally prefer it when i am with some people but when i am in a squad with others i know that it will work better as one channel its personal preference at the time. 

 

In short there is no definate answer and we could debate for days yet some will still have a PERSONAL preference so i would say let people do what they feel is best for their squad. 

This means SLs talk to the FTLs and decide on a protocol and once its decided get on with it. 

[Ryko]

Just in response to Smiley's points,

 

One single frequency per squad, that's how we've always done it and that's how it should be done. There is no point in splitting the radio up and give every single fireteam a seperate frequency.

 

"Get off my lawn!" said the old man to the kids who were sort of on his lawn. "You kids should have seen how we did things in my day. It was different and BETTER then!" he shouted, as he waved his old man stick at the kids.

 

Actually there are several good points in favour of splitting up radio frequencies, which are balanced by other points in favour of not splitting up the frequencies.  To not consider doing so is lazy.

 

Even if it was to keep the chit-chatting out? Why not just tell them to be quiet and read the rules or if they give irrelevant information tell them to try otherwise next time. If they still won't listen, why not contact a staff member? Remember, we are here to make sure you guys have the best experience possible and to remove people who block you from getting that experience.

 

I don't think there has been a time I wanted to have someone kicked or banned because of them abusing the radio - perhaps once or twice in three months, when someone has sung over the radio channel.  But even then, when combat is on, people are not giving irrelevant info over the radio - they are giving info, it is relevant to them, but it is not necessarily relevant to me.  Hence the usefulness of split channels.

 

Direct orders from the Squad Leader would simply take too long to be followed up, as the Fireteam leader has to repeat them, now might the fireteamleader be uncounscious, KIA or still at base; a link in the chain of communication is lost and the rest of the fireteam the FTL in question was part of is left in the dark about what's happening and going to happen.

 

This is a fallacy, and assumes that the role of the Team Leader is to parrot what the Squad Leader wants them to do.  Technically the Squad lead should not necessarily be running the mission right beside the Fire Team leaders: this means they are on the front line, and likely to get just as shot as the Fire Teams, which is a no-no.  They should be in a safer position, analyzing the situation and providing general direction to the Fire Teams through the Fire Team Leaders.  Better yet, there should be a general plan that the Fire Teams should be implementing, and asking for clarification when needed.

 

Simply put - the SL shouldn't need to give orders in the field unless they're asked for.  The plan's been made, and it's going to be implemented by the Fire Teams.  The SL should be there to assess battlefield conditions and alter the plan based on them.

 

Yes, if the FTL goes down then there is a communication gap.  In the teams I play with I encourage communication to follow the chain of command - the FTL is a sergeant, and the autorifleman is a corporal, so they get the duty to follow up with the SL if the FTL goes down.  If the entire squad gets decimated, I have asked every to go back to a single channel, but this is essentially just turning the remnants of a squad into a fire team, which should be on the same channel anyway.

 

When there are more than a handful of people, running everyone on one channel becomes hard to manage, especially if the SL is also directing the rest of the unit (Vortex, Hammer, MAT, etc) because there's no PlatCo.

 

To point out what Mini said, there is no point in A1 AR shouting out contact over radio, if it doesn't concern A2.
The correct way would be for the AR to shout (yell) contact over local, make sure the FTL is aware and let him report it in if necessary. It would not be to split up the radio frequencies as then, might the report from the FTL be necessary A2 - apart from their FTL - will also be left in the dark.

 

I don't see how this is technically different than multiple channels, indeed, better to do with multiple channels.  A point you are not factoring in here is the variableness of local (non-radio) communication vs. radio communication.  If I say something over the radio, there is a 99% chance that everyone on that channel will hear and understand it: the volume is constant because my words are going directly into everyone elses' ears.  If I say something in local space, my volume decreases based on their distance from me.  Technically: if I'm whispering, after 15m someone won't hear me; regular distance is 30m, and shouting gets me to 45m.  And of course the volumes fade out as you reach those limits, so yes you can technically hear me at 30m with regular voice, but only if you're straining to listen.  Add to that a few gunshots and, well, forget about it.

 

If you are so concerned about A2 needing to hear what A1 is reporting on their own channel, well, the TFAR system has you covered, because people talking on the radio also talk in local space, so if you are playing out of the rule book and keeping the squad together, you will hear the contact reports in local space anyway, even if people are on their own channel.  And there is nothing to stop players who want to listen in on other channels from doing so, other than the default radios that regular rifleman receive, which can easily be replaced through a variety of means.

 

The teamleaders are never to be seen as equally expendable units as riflemen are...

 

I think we are on the same page here, but I don't think your comments about team leads vs squad leads make a case one way or another for one channel vs split channels.

 

'SL can't have FTL chatting when he tries to listen to command'

For a moment, screw the rank system and think, could what your FTL has to say be much more important and involve any input you have to make in a much smaller timeframe? People could die if you don't hear what your FTL says. He's basically your eyes and ears in the frontline.

 

There are a lot of assumptions at play in the two words "FTL chatting" - let's assume it's not idle banter, but A1 FTL is coordinating his team in the midst of combat.  People got spread out, mortars are falling, enemy machine guns are blazing.  The SL is trying to coordinate with Talon for air support.  A2 wants to move around to flank and are trying to get contact reports (or, helpfully providing them).  Everyone is on radio channels because they can't hear each other locally due to the noise and being spread out.  SL can't hear Talon because Alpha is necessarily spamming the radio channel.  See a problem?

 

Again, multiple channels help here.  In a way, SL can be of no direct help to Alpha as it is carrying out its current objective of not getting killed, but they can use the radio more effectively within their own group to mitigate the situation.  If they need help from SL, or to report new information, they can do it on the command channel (100 in my setup - A1 is on 110, A2 on 120) and in this case, the SL knows it's important because it's coming from the FTL, directed specifically to SL.

 

Just simply say 'break' over LW, hear your FTL out, make a decision if necessairy, relay it to others if necessairy and then radio CMD back in to repeat what he had to say.
Remember the order's he's going to give you or the questions he's going to ask you lose their motive as soon as your entire squad gets whiped.

 

In the above scenario, saying "break, break, break" doesn't necessarily help because people are doing multiple things at the same time, including being shot.  In a non-combat situation, you are totally correct.

 

Still, seeing there's no rule about it the people in command (see rule 4) are still free to decide if they would rather go for one or multiple channels.

 

I'm glad you came back to this.  I should point out that when people want to do a single combined channel, I don't make a fuss about it, but sometimes when I want to have people on separate channels, they do make a fuss about it.

 

-R