An Open, Constructive Platform Discussing The Current Issues Within Ahoyworld

[Minipily]

I haven't read all of this thread so it may have already been said.

 

I believe one good thing that AW needs to return and stay is regular staff and player meetings. Host this regularly, have staff and community members work out points of discussion and stick to the routine.

 

In the past when AW had a rather large divide, this was a decision that was made and we managed regular community meetings where everyone had a chance to share their thoughts on improvements, have debates and also provide a time for staff to provide regular news for the community with real time feedback on what they thought.

 

I think fostering an environment of regular discussion and feedback in real time during regular meetings will help to reinforce that "stand by eachother" mentality that is seeming to be lacking recently and help to bring about new ideas on the regular to maintain focus.

 

I feel that this could all be planned out with a community meeting to let people take the stage and talk about what they would expect from these meetings and the best ways to do it. It may also help to get people together to chat and just have a fresh start if needed.

 

This was something that @PiranhA did a while back and I believe the fresh start then was one of the best things to happen. Just let bygones be bygones and let the community shape the way forward.

[Nibbs]

I normally try to avoid drama, but this seems important enough to weigh in so here is my 1 and only post on the topic:

 

On 6/18/2021 at 5:01 PM, Minipily said:

I think fostering an environment of regular discussion and feedback in real time during regular meetings will help to reinforce that "stand by eachother" mentality that is seeming to be lacking recently and help to bring about new ideas on the regular to maintain focus.

This... a thousand times, this...

Just reading through the posts, it's clear that the issue isn't the rules, it's the communication, that people don't feel that they're being listened to in full and their comments taken on board. Don't let this become an issue scraped under the carpet with a solution of "We'll review the rules".

Regarding should the issue have been raised? Absolutely, it's something that needed clarifying
Should there have been any punishments or bad feeling generated from this in any direction? Absolutely not, common sense rules that this is no different to using another servers squad xml when playing. It's automated and not intentional.

That's all that needed to happen, just that. Instead we clearly have a huge communication issue leaving everyone feel aggrieved.
 

I am deeply sorry to see so many wonderful members of the team leave, they will all be greatly missed, and I hope to see them again some day, but I understand that feelings run deep and it can be hard to settle differences, and to recognise where apologies are owed. I just hope we learn the right lessons from this.

 

 - Andy / Nibbs99

[SiegeSix]

So after 7 or so months, I finally read the full message. Rather late than never, right?
 

On 6/17/2021 at 8:58 PM, MidnightRunner said:

Honestly, I'm sick of being polite, I'm sick of trying to be fair in this fucking witch hunt. 

Language.

 

On 6/17/2021 at 8:58 PM, MidnightRunner said:

Fuck this victim complex. You among others tried to undermine the application of Ahoyworlds principles in some failed attempt to get your own way. The mob mentality ruled.

Let's analyse the tip of the iceberg.

People left for another community. They somehow brought each other with them, including those they didn't really talk to. When player numbers are dwindling and players are offered a chance for higher playercount operations with ranks and designated roles, they jump ship and most never looked back. In that dire time, it would've been nice to know that Core Staff gave a care about it. But instead we got this:

On 6/17/2021 at 8:58 PM, MidnightRunner said:

But no Core Staff taking time to properly investigate and not just blindly ban people without evidence makes us the bad guys.

I think the underlying issue is the core staff itself, and not the reaction to the situation... well mostly. You see, as Lindi said, we were never told anything, besides what we could find in 

Stating the transparent thoughts about the process and thoughts about the community who picked their side. 

 

I do find it curious as to how Core Staff can conduct an investigation into a matter like this, the way they did. I find it funny, that everyone that saw the document took the same side. I also find it strange those that tried to set things right got punished for it. 

I am by mostly a neutral man. I love a good drama and this is no exception. However seeing the very pillar of this community, Mr. Community Referee or whatever Lindi's role was as an Admin, choose his side as if he knew what was going on. Yet with the knowledge of the document being leaked, the core staff never opened the floor to invite some of the admins that werent in the report, like Lindi. Sure, policies are in place, but we've banned people for less.

 

If actions were taken and people were banned, well... those people probably never would've returned for the next 2-3 years anyways. Sure, forcefully saying goodbye to long term members are sad, but at least it would've shown you had guts. Instead our current Core Staff team, consisting of Ryko, Ghostdragon, Midnight and Chris, is not what we define as pillars of the community. 

You see pillars can be seen, they can be seen as supporting the structure they are placed within. Keyword here being, SEEN, because where is everyone? 

Now is not the time for excuses, we know Ghost can deliver when Midnight is not there... mostly, but where is Chris and where is Ryko? It's okay if they're busy with real life, but why keep them up there if they don't have time for the community? If Xwatt can, why can't they.

If the requirements are to process the qualities that each member require, then why isn't anyone with the same level of qualification, who is vastly more active core staff? 

 

Why make a third open letter, when Xwatt's second is a good forum to revive, because unlike Midnight's comment...

On 6/17/2021 at 2:07 PM, Xwatt said:

The following is a statement about the current affairs within AW, and the opportunity to provide, an open, constructive platform raising issues currently present within AW.

This was foundation of the entire post from Xwatt, and that I cannot beat.

[Minipily]

Hmm yes I do wonder where Chris is at this time of need...

 

 

[JJ Cakes]

3 hours ago, Minipily said:

Hmm yes I do wonder where Chris is at this time of need...

 

 

 

I was an FA before I got Zeus, so I am bound to not be a jerk to you, but yeah, you're not really a part of this community anymore.  And if you don't mind, why in the heck are all you splitters using our TS?  There are players I care about and do what I can to make their experiences on EU#1 as good as I can and you're just a non-entity to me.  I know Siege said I'm the nicest guy that says no bad words, but please, disappear so I can keep my rep.

 

[Adshield]

I dont see a need to be rude here, especially not rudely telling people to disappear, just because they play games elsewhere too.
 
I personally havent played on Arma at AW for a while, but I still check up on the website to see how things are going, and I still meet up with friends on the TS in the social channels. One thing I will say is that old members, and people who are here less often, are still members of the community, no matter if they play arma elsewhere.
From my time here I know that the TS is open for more than just EU1 chat, and has been for many years. I've seen people use the TS for so many things, from just chatting, to playing games, even interacting with people to become more fluent a new language. And ive not seen people complain about empty channels in the TS being used for that.
Many of the 'Splitters' dont mean anything bad by Ahoyworld, hence why we come back and chat in the TS or go on the forums. I dont want to see Ahoyworld fall in a trap like this, its an amazing community with massive potential. So much that it brought all of us together without any recruitment, almost all of us just joined the game from the arma server lists and kept coming back for more because it was so good.
Ahoyworld for me has been a strong part of my life, its been there ever since I got my PC and got into playing this type of game. Over time my tastes have drifted from EU1 to EU3, MSO and now other adventures. Yet I still like AW and want it to flourish, so that others can find it and enjoy it like I did.
I want to see us all move on from this, there's no need to point fingers or get judgmental over peoples decisions.

[Bomer]

Why are we reopening this discussion after 1,5+ years? I'm getting a bit tired that this is being brought again so long after the fact. Everyone else seemed to have moved. on...
The issue has resolved the way it has. It could have been handled a lot better by everyone who was involved. What else is there still to talk about?

This is by no means a comprehensive list of thoughts. Some sections are not as well formulated as others and while I am tired of the discussion flaring up again I am happy to further elaborate to to help understand my point of view.

The people that left did so out of their own choice. They were dissatisfied with an aspect of the community and decided to look for what they want somewhere else and found it. Some of them were happy to still play with us but felt unwelcome after the above events and thus have not shown their faces as regularly as they would like. Is it not possible to be part of two communities or must we dedicate ourselves to one singularly?

I think it's a disservice to (the choice of) the people that left to say they took each other with them. Especially saying they took people with them they barely spoke to. We are a community that engaged with each other much more than some of us might realise and we did very much transcend the little cliques some people perceived. Plenty of people shared the concerns. Some stayed, some chose to leave.
 

On 1/2/2023 at 2:52 AM, SiegeSix said:

I do find it curious as to how Core Staff can conduct an investigation into a matter like this, the way they did. I find it funny, that everyone that saw the document took the same side. I also find it strange those that tried to set things right got punished for it. 

This bit is vague and unfinished. what is your point? I'm not sure what you mean with people getting punished. All the people that left staff positions did so in protest to the decision made. What punishments are you talking about?

In general I think you're looking at this too black and white in a world of greys. According to the interpretation of the community rules there was no ban-able offense. Just people going somewhere of their own choice because they heard of another place that offered something they were looking for that we weren't offering. 

This whole thing could have been handled better by everyone. How and why are discussions we've all had on forums, discord, Teamspeak and any other channel the community has spoken with one another. Lessons learned if something like this ever happens again.

Whatever is done in regards to the events of 2021 is done. Everyone else has moved on. I think it's a shame to linger on it so long after and to re-open a discussion I have not heard anything from by anyone else since.

[Gambit]

i've been holding back, not wanting to reignite a useless and dead conversation, since Siege didnt make a point, i didnt think it would warrant a reply, but the audacity here...

 

so you say you have many friends and come back to meet them, because you wouldnt meet them elsewhere. who got over to the other community? 99.9% of mso, mini even got the recruiter award for it, and yall still got the steam group dont you? and before you mention yall part of the community, you were never part of it. mso was dead meme, sound overdrive with the lead 2 singers, you lot forced your way into eu3 AFTER the community built it up.

 

need i remind you, mso was adjacent, never mixed with the "eu1 plebs" (yes, that is a quote, not naming names, you know who you are)

 

-or the mission which was streamed, and clearly captured when all of you shat on everyone, berated them for 2 hours ON STREAM, and collectively decided, to "fuck everybody, we do our own thing" then clearly disregarded everyone, fucked off with a plane and left the rest stranded (glorious teamplay moment right there, the pinnacle of arma milsim, or wasnt something along these lines the summary blurb of mso?),

 

-or the other regular gamenight, where "fuck them, ive got who i care about right here"

 

-or the massive advertisement campaign, when all of yous joined with the unit patch on, profile and all, then shittalked in the far corner, away from the "plebs". guess what, you werent that sneaky.

 

 

so, the point is, yall just sit in nav deck, circlejerk eachother, which you could do in the other community TS, you could make your own discord serever, its free. you dont mingle, you dont even try to get to know the community you call yourself part of, every single time you lot joined previous gamenights, with the sole intent of memeing and disrupting it.

 

interesting to see, the mso havent changed a bit, trying to carve a piece of the accomplishments out of somebody else's work...

 

i had many many late night run-ins with newcomers, who jumped into nav deck first, and you lot bullied them out of there in minutes, with fuck offs and more, then they jumped channels and found me and JJ sitting there, and told us all about it, asked if the community is like that. i personally dont want any of you to be the first experience of anybody who joins AW. scratch that, i dont want you to be any part of their experience. you chose to be part of another community, be there, form that.

 

dont try to tell everyone you are still AW members when you cant even recognize the regulars' voices, although you chill on the same TS, for years.

[SiegeSix]

44 minutes ago, Bomer said:

The people that left did so out of their own choice. They were dissatisfied with an aspect of the community and decided to look for what they want somewhere else and found it.

Everyone else seems to drop the mask, so I'll do so too.

I think you mean "we" and not "they", because you started playing over there as well.

 

44 minutes ago, Bomer said:

Why are we reopening this discussion after 1,5+ years?

Because after 1,5+ years of talking about how inactive core staff is, I think it important to air it out. Xwatt opened a platform to do and I utilized it.

 

44 minutes ago, Bomer said:

The issue has resolved the way it has.

Sure, the issue regarding the members has been resolved, but issues still linger. You don't like when I'm vague (for a reason) and unfinished, so let me be clear. If you read my comment from top to bottom, you'll notice this isn't about the players, but about core staff itself. Faces that are never here and for a lack of better words, only here to do their role and half can't even do that anymore.

 

I think it's okay if you need to take a break in real life for a while, but it's been almost 2 years and we haven't seen Ryko or Chris. Ghost we've seen work out technical problems for I&A as well as setup AWE server when Midnight was away, but not an active face to be seen. 

 

28 minutes ago, Gambit said:

since Siege didnt make a point

I believe this is the point:

On 1/2/2023 at 2:52 AM, SiegeSix said:

You see pillars can be seen, they can be seen as supporting the structure they are placed within. Keyword here being, SEEN, because where is everyone?

 

 

11 hours ago, Minipily said:

Hmm yes I do wonder where Chris is at this time of need...

I am surprised you can stir up Cakes that badly. For that I can only agree with him. 

We both know where he is.

[WinterMute]

This has diverged significantly from the actual point and has definitely lost the constructive and mature vibe that @Xwatt was going for (easily forgotten, 18 months-ish later).

 

If people weren't truly part of the community, then there is no point complaining about "losing" them, or them being "recruited" away, because they were never part of the community, right? You can't both have problems with people not joining in and simultaneously declare they've never been part of the community. 

 

As for monitoring people's activity in other places, that's just really weird. Not singling anyone in particular out for this, as I know a number of people were doing it, seemingly long after everyone else considered this issue dead and buried. I would rather they had put this effort into actively promoting AW in places such as /r/FindAUnit and on Twitter etc, as unfortunately Arma 3 is an old game, and only new players find communities via the server browser. AW's strength has always been the sense of community and friendship that is centred around Arma, though ends up going in myriad directions with other games being played long into the night until people remember they have "real lives" to wake up for in the morning and they should probably get going. There are subgroups within AW, but by and large we could all get along enough to make a decent game of Arma happen 9 times out of 10.

 

I implore you all, as the unintentional centre of this storm, to stop taking this stuff personally and to - more broadly speaking - just communicate properly. My decision to play with another group was not personal, it was simply practical (I don't like Arma that goes outside of the range of "modern history to near-future", and there was a Star Wars campaign happening, so I had an Arma day free.). My decision to become far less involved in the community has been mostly a result of people taking this kind of thing personally, and feeling like people were observing me and taking notes constantly. It left me feeling like there was no place in AW where I could continue as I always had been without someone in the room waiting for me to slip and say something that definitively broke a rule, just because they'd taken it personally. Hell, if they weren't in the room, it felt like they would be monitoring who was in the same room as me and that in itself would be a crime.

 

Soon after I started playing with this group, I let @MidnightRunner know, in case there was any issue from a staff PoV. He let me know there isn't, and that other people in AW play with other groups and that's alright (and I know that eg. @Norris was aware of at least one such other group and was fine with it) . As soon as anyone had taken any sort of issue with it, eg. discord rich presence, or that I'd streamed some games with them, etc, they were more than free to just ask me about it, and they'd have found me just saying "I want to play Arma set around nowish, with people who do things differently to us, to see if I can improve how I play Arma as I've only played it with you guys", and we'd have been sorted. 

 

tl;dr: It's nothing personal, AW needs to play to its strengths to attract new players. All Arma communities cycle through players, but the ones that survive or grow replace them by attracting new ones. You've got a really fucking gorgeous unique mission that I strongly believe that people need to know about - Frontlines. It deserves to be up there with Antistasi and Liberation in the lists of co-op game modes people should play. You've also got the DCS players that really have something good to push forwards with as well. I'm sure that there is plenty of good stuff for AW to be doing rather than shouting angrily at an 18 month year old thread.

 

@SiegeSix - there are better places to start the discussion on CS activity than in a thread dedicated to a different topic.

[Bomer]

Last I'll say on this before I leave this thread be as I don't see the current discussion evolve into anything other than pointing fingers and personal grudges.

And as William mentions. This has diverged from the original point.

25 minutes ago, SiegeSix said:

I think you mean "we" and not "they", because you started playing over there as well.

So? My point is that that shouldn't be an issue. I like a lot of different styles of play. AW offers missions and a style of play I really enjoy and like to run myself. Meanwhile there are other styles of play I go elsewhere for.

[Art3misZA]

I feel that nothing dredged up here adds value or anything new.

 

What I have learnt from this (and we are all aware of my role) is that this is, in the end, a game. It should not affect you so much. Let people play where they want and and instead ask "what can we do to make this community thrive?".

 

Time to go outside, touch some grass, and stop dwelling on this.

[Gambit]

13 minutes ago, WinterMute said:

As for monitoring people's activity in other places

not monitoring, brought to attention, when it was relevant, at the time of the original "incident", i brought it up, to demonstrate the twofaced approach and friendly "we could get together and coexist" bullshit. couldnt back then, hence ppl left, wouldnt work now, as per previous posts shown nothing changed

 

as for me, i couldnt care less where ppl play, said it back then, saying it now again. if they find a place where they are happy, im happy. what boils my blood is, some ppl werent happy here, made it very public they dont want to be mixing with the plebs, and now trying to crawl back to the very place they themselves left after berating it, claiming membership in a community theyve never truly made an effort to be part of.

 

if you ask me, i would be the happiest if certain individuals would go and just play someplace else and never look back, best of luck. im not mad about recruiting, take whoever wants to go, they would go with or without incentives.

 

but for some reason, when a discussion about certain absent corestaff members and questions arise, somehow eeeeevery one of yous crawl out of the woodworks, with the support "reactions" to the isolated groups posts and mocking reactions to anything else, like it always happened, thinking we are talking about you. nah, i know im not alone with this, but i for sure forgot you lot existed, not relevant anymore. i wasnt going to reply to siege's post, because i saw nothing that we never knew or needed to explain, yet some mocking had to be done right? and then the audacity to consider THAT, part of the community? couldnt let that slip

 

as ive said earlier, you lot chose to be part of another community, shape that, make the best of it, good luck.

 

as per the original intent (as best i could piece it together)

we know certain corestaff members arent as active as they were before, nothing new there, life changes, what can you do, im certain there is a removal after specific time period, but one thing is for sure, its voluntary, some days might not permit some staff members to be active as life gets in the way, and they sacrifice their free time.

 

simply, as i see it, the servers are up and running, problems fixed in matter of hours tops, nothing to really complain about. the incident was closed, and had community meetings, a streamlined decision-action protocol made public would be nice, but ultimately, every ban, as on eu1 is considered and treated on a case-by-case basis, which i have no problem with, so that concludes the "would be nice but not necessary" argument, im sure corestaff had a discussion about it, and might have an internal document or an agreement, just to get everyone on the same page and dont have to go off on gut feelings, which if kept under the lids, is for a good reason (for one, not making it public would make it harder to find and exploit loopholes)

 

 

[pmcrugby]

Let's just archive this thread, at this point there is nothing to gain by making more drama or digging up dirt. I get that there may be a different discussion to be had about Core Staff. But tbh I find the whole ordeal that happened on AW last summer a sad and disheartening part of my Arma career. AW will always be the place I started in Arma, and I think it's the same for many.

So lets reminisce on the good points, not a low point. Use a different thread to discuss a different situation.

Happy new year!

[PiranhA]

On 6/18/2021 at 6:01 PM, Minipily said:

This was something that @PiranhA did a while back and I believe the fresh start then was one of the best things to happen. Just let bygones be bygones and let the community shape the way forward.

 

Well, thanks for mentioning and not forgetting about me. I did more or less a silent quitting. I also stopped completely with gaming.

I dont regret being a part of this community and sort of happy i saved it from completely disappearing completely, it was really close of being gone completely and was in a really bad shape back then. 

 

Im married now, have 2 kids young kids, retired from work on my 40th. Spending time on/with my family and new hobbies like travelling, skydiving and racing. Voulunteer firefighter, got CLS training in the MARCH and PAWS protocol and got certified for it, currently busy with many small projects but mostly spending time with my wonderfull wife and kids... really happy now.

 

The only person im still in contact with is Mark T. 

 

Wish you all the best here and ... dont forget to take a walk now and then... some pullups can do good aswell.

[Minipily]

On 10/7/2023 at 11:25 PM, PiranhA said:

 

Well, thanks for mentioning and not forgetting about me. I did more or less a silent quitting. I also stopped completely with gaming.

I dont regret being a part of this community and sort of happy i saved it from completely disappearing completely, it was really close of being gone completely and was in a really bad shape back then. 

 

Im married now, have 2 kids young kids, retired from work on my 40th. Spending time on/with my family and new hobbies like travelling, skydiving and racing. Voulunteer firefighter, got CLS training in the MARCH and PAWS protocol and got certified for it, currently busy with many small projects but mostly spending time with my wonderfull wife and kids... really happy now.

 

The only person im still in contact with is Mark T. 

 

Wish you all the best here and ... dont forget to take a walk now and then... some pullups can do good aswell.

 

Nice to hear that you're doing well and doing what you enjoy PiranhA. Cheers for the good times.