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An Open, Constructive Platform Discussing The Current Issues Within Ahoyworld


Xwatt

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27 minutes ago, Lindi said:

@GhostDragonIt started the instant our admins were advertising another Arma 3 community using Discord rich presence mod. I believe and hope core staff noticed it and I'm also sure concerns were raised quite early on, even though a report was not filed until much later. So yes if you start from the point where the report was filed, then people surely had made their minds up, it had been going on for quite some time by then. It seems Core staff just missed it, didn't communicate internally nor with the rest of the staff.

I hate to get involved here but, unfortunately due to the way that said community works. DC rich presence is a vital part of the framework. It isn't an optional mod like on AW. Yes discussions have been made about it and whether it can be turned off or hidden but my conclusion was that if it becomes taboo then it feels wrong.As @MidnightRunner put DC rich presence isn't a form of recruiting the same way that having DC display that I am playing Minecraft or another game isn't recruiting. I among most on ahoyworld have other enjoyments and dislikes outside AW or even arma. It is sad to see this spiral and people take their sides but I will still be friends with as many as possible!

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16 minutes ago, Bomer said:

 

I understand that you see the discord rich presence differently, but the way you're writing your messages gives me the idea you're taking the message rather personally and are getting agitated. As mentioned we're trying to keep the discussion civil and calm and emotions tend to get in the way of that. Let's try to remain objective so that we can get to a solution. We all have the best interest in mind and I value your opinion greatly.

You read me wrong unfortunately, I've had time to burn through the anger, I am mostly just disappointed anymore.

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17 minutes ago, Gambit said:

@Lindi, ppl hiding their status on discord, going offline on steam to "hide" just to avoid fingers being pointed at them and "be a little more careful than the average joe"... see how much more suspicious that is? there is no right decision, just clear evidence or lack of. if you mix what feels morally right into this, then its just dictatorship. even the worst has the right to say their piece, which should be faced with evidence, and if the evidence is strong enough against it then an action can be carried out.

facts over feelings.

Yet this is what was being done by some of them. I'm sorry you missed it.

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3 minutes ago, Lindi said:

Yet this is what was being done by some of them. I'm sorry you missed it.

well you see, damned if you do and damned if you dont. if you hide it, ooh that suspicious, if you dont, ooh thats recruiting... make up your mind then, what should have been done, and how it should have been handled. and just sayin, CS is the most scrutinized. dont you think its fair to say they take their time to reach a conclusion which will be disected in a forum thread started as soon as they make it public? and why do you think is a good option to have demotions handed out without proper discussion and evaluation. like for real, you handled player bans for so long, what if your decision making would have been hindered by another mod hopping in and dealing with it without discussing you, then you need to take the blame for it cuz you are the referee, you should present a united front, back up a decision which you had no knowledge about and violated proper procedures?

how is that midnight became the bad guy in this shit? why cant ppl just admit they made a mistake, acting radther quickly without at least discussing with all CS to have that united front Xwatt was wishing to have?

at what point we call a sunk cost fallacy on it and stop this bullshit?

 

thankfully im not obliged to be more than an "average joe" yet still somehow feel i should have been more consious about what i share with who, maybe it will be held against me in the future for some reason... ffs, thats what my ex did, a true fcking archeologist, digging up shit from the past and concluding it was damning evidence in light of the present

 

again, rules are rules, and just for information, anyone can set custom status tied to exe files, for example while im in my IDE editing code, my dicord status says "coding some shit", is that recruiting?

 

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22 minutes ago, GhostDragon said:

This was discussed within corestaff and we determined that we did not and will not repremand anyone within the community for the use of this mod due to the fact that we use it and the fact that the information is accessable from other sources also. This was always the case and would have been clear had someone asked us at any point.

 

Initial action was taken within 3 hours of the report being made, The first i knew about the initial report was a message notifying me of the demotion in the corestaff chanel.
Unfortunately i was working late, doing critical maintance at work and therefore couldnt look at it immediately.
 

 

We knew the opinions of staff and had detailed notes from many people. we reviewed the information that we had from staff and decided that it was sufficient. Had the process have been completed properly then im sure we would have had a civilised convorsation about the topics at hand.
 

Honestly at the time it felt like we were being beaten from all sides, i knew anything i said would be spread around like wildfire and warped into something that it wasnt. I opted to not disclose anything until action was decided for that reason.

 

 

I will not pretend and say the action was appropriate when it was clearly not. There was no investigation and that was where my initial concerns lied. Had the evidence been clear cut as people are making it out to be im sure my stance would have been different.


I cannot reiterate enough this started way way before the actual admin report was filed. Weeks if not even months, the three hours of work is really not the issue. Had it been caught at the very start, maybe you would have faced an entirely different kind of attitude, you might have been able to speak and converse knowing you had the trust of your admins. Instead the situation was left to grow out of control. 

 

I am very sorry to see a large portion of staff driven to the point of resigning out of frustration. It is a rotten feeling. Now I've spent more than enough time on this. Call me a witch hunter, tell me I'm trying to intentionally under mine the spirit of Ahoy and tell of every "pillar of the community" off. It should be a fair warning to anyone who aspires to become staff on Ahoy or currently holds a position..

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6 minutes ago, Gambit said:

well you see, damned if you do and damned if you dont. if you hide it, ooh that suspicious, if you dont, ooh thats recruiting... make up your mind then, what should have been done, and how it should have been handled. and just sayin, CS is the most scrutinized. dont you think its fair to say they take their time to reach a conclusion which will be disected in a forum thread started as soon as they make it public? and why do you think is a good option to have demotions handed out without proper discussion and evaluation. like for real, you handled player bans for so long, what if your decision making would have been hindered by another mod hopping in and dealing with it without discussing you, then you need to take the blame for it cuz you are the referee, you should present a united front, back up a decision which you had no knowledge about and violated proper procedures?

how is that midnight became the bad guy in this shit? why cant ppl just admit they made a mistake, acting radther quickly without at least discussing with all CS to have that united front Xwatt was wishing to have?

at what point we call a sunk cost fallacy on it and stop this bullshit?

 

thankfully im not obliged to be more than an "average joe" yet still somehow feel i should have been more consious about what i share with who, maybe it will be held against me in the future for some reason... ffs, thats what my ex did, a true fcking archeologist, digging up shit from the past and concluding it was damning evidence in light of the present

 

again, rules are rules, and just for information, anyone can set custom status tied to exe files, for example while im in my IDE editing code, my dicord status says "coding some shit", is that recruiting?

 

 

Players in question should have considered stepping down for the time playing on another community. 

Core staff could have discussed the situation at the start, maybe offered a "leave of absence" or just about anything but what actually happened.

Communication should have happened to all staff regarding the situation at the very start. Maybe a consensus could have been reached on how to proceed.

I'm just saying just about anything could have been better than what happened.

...now I am off... I need to rest.

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For those who care about this already, it will be no secret that I was one of the admins playing somewhere else and reported to be recruiting for that place.

 

One point in @Gambit's first post illustrates quite well how the situation was blown out of proportions based on falsehoods. The supposed multiple credible sources as stated in his post have conjectured an outside impression as fact. Frankly I would suspect this is the theme for most of the situation up to the report. No, you don't get admin or Zeus for collecting medals.

 

From there, I would like to start identifying the crux of it. Several people have already duly pointed it out: Communication.

I have been playing with that unit since the end of January. In these five months, I had had no points of communication from any other member of staff as to the nature of my stay there nor that I was to stop. It was a known secret from the start, but I had no qualms about it. I joined it during a phase of AW gamenights that did not interest me, such as Star Wars, and I had been itching to play larger-scale missions. My intention from the start was to enjoy one or two of those a month, having laid out a schedule for myself to play D&D on Sundays, clashing with the big missions there, and split myself for one event in both, here on AW and there.

 

Here I will point out that the Discord Rich Presence mod was active twice in my case, when I had forgotten to disable it.

 

At one point, I made good on a promise I had given a good friend to teach them about team leadership and tactics. I figured it's easier with a team to demonstrate with, so I invited others who have expressed interest in learning about it on their own accord. We did this on my local machine while on the AW TS. There was no affiliation with the other unit. Neither was there any semblance of milsim advocating besides trying to teach something proper, to pass on as playing by example like the AWE Veteran Programme already attempts to foster.

 

Afterwards, I was told that an outside party was not happy with this. I figured they just wanted to be kept in the loop, so I noted that for next time, created a staff post asking what we think about trainings moving forward and closed that book. Had it been a big deal, I thought, I would have been approached about it. I was not.

 

During all of this I was actively aiding the development of Frontlines spearheaded only by Dom and myself. Outreach under my lead was set to begin a new initiative of social engagement and even art commissions.

I can say without qualms once again that my interests lay squarely with AW.

 

Still a month before the report, I pinged Core Staff in a staff Discord channel in a rather inconsiderate manner to point out a lack of communication regarding AWE matters. This was minutes before an Outreach meeting and I was in voice chat with staff who were not in the other unit. Due to my frustration, I mentioned how refreshing it was to have good communication at the other place, naming it clearly in the knowledge it was already an open secret. I outlined their procedures and philosophy and held them in high regard during this.

 

I still hope and stand by my opinion that we can discuss the accomplishments and shortfalls of other communities by virtue of example, without taking it as advocating for or against migrating.

 

For several days surrounding this, but particularly a few days later, I noticed that a member of Core Staff was shadowing us on TS. When I switched channels, so did they, but they never spoke up. I had my TS set up to connect me to the Admin Atoll, because it is a better look than sitting in AFK-ish since I looked able to respond to inquiries. As soon as somebody else was in there with me, so was the member of CS. At one point thereafter, they sprang on the exact moment I was alone and started to interrogate me about supposed slandering of CS or recruiting for the other unit. This is recorded.

 

This was the first time I had ever heard this was a concern. It was a decidedly dysfunctional way to begin the conversation.

 

It was also the last time there was any attempt at communication prior to the report. I offered. I got no response.

 

The report itself has been discussed at length in the thread. I don't know its contents or what incident it refers to.

 

For me, none of this was ever a personal matter. It still isn't. The report was made with the right intentions and I will support it, because I have all faith that it was made from genuine concern.

 

The report simply enabled a pervasive grudge working its way through the backstage to be brought to the foreground.

 

When I resigned, I left an open letter to staff and in it mentioned in what light I came to see AhoyWorld. It's a place of mates. It's a place to meet new people, hear new voices and the stories they tell when you otherwise wouldn't. Most gaming communities get their people through active recruiting. Very few places live off their innate draw, yet AW does. You want to stay for the people, because AW is not competing as the best. It doesn't pretend to be either.

 

When I realised I am serving as a wedge to drive people apart, I chose to leave. If there's a regret I have about this, it's that my wedge-like state wasn't communicated to me earlier for me to leave earlier.

 

In the end, I would like to echo a sentiment from my resignation and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up verbatim.

 

When I first came back last year, could you imagine my delight when everyone stayed for the gamenight debrief? There was feedback, criticism, praise. Every single game turned into an opportunity to be better than the one before.

If nothing else, I would ask to carry that spirit forward into more of what you do. Talk. Find common ground and define boundaries. Lift each other up through adversity and confrontation by knowing you will get through it when you realise you're rigging the same ship.

 

There's my naval pun in an otherwise far too dry post.

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This has been a really long month for those of us embroiled in this directly. I do not appreciate the peanut gallery and backseat drivers for making this needlessly more complex, and I am immensely sad that people who I respect immensely have made the decision to leave the staff team. I feel this has made Ahoyworld measurably weaker, but I implore you to not be strangers.

 

I think that no staff are above scrutiny and I willingly have presented CS many records of past events in the belief that truth will out and that they can only act on complete information.

 

This information is not available to people below CS by design. Nobody below the CS grade has the full information - not even the person that made the report or the people who were reported. I can happily inform you that the first notification I had to say that I was reported was after action had already been taken against me. This is not our procedure here.

 

This thread has revealed some incredibly incorrect information that is being repeated as truth. This is only possible if people have been discussing something without the full information and allowed it to prejudice them. If this incorrect information was actually correct, then some of the conclusions that people have arrived at would be correct. However...

 

Objective and impartial due process is all that matters when making decisions as a moderator. If we start moderating based on gut feelings we lose the ability to function as a community where people feel safe to have different personalities and are all interesting as individuals - and this is one of the big draws of Ahoyworld. The community is fantastic.

 

I am disappointed that some people with concerns did not make efforts to make them known as soon as they became concerned. Your watchful inaction meant there was more to blow up when things eventually went wrong. I do not know if things would have gone better if the CS reaction to the report had been more comprehensive before a decision was made, but what's done is done.

 

I have also thanked Artemis for her report, as I want to foster a culture where we are all accountable for our actions. Nobody that submits a report that they feel is for the betterment of Ahoyworld can or should be blamed for what happens as a consequence of that report, and I am completely confident that she had Ahoyworld's best interests at heart.

 

I am not going to bear grudges from this, and I will be happy to see any of you in TS or in game.

 

In the spirit of communication, my DMs are open, either here or on discord.

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I would have been ok with any outcome. I was just doing my job. I also do not feel that my report was placed with gut feelings as I had sat on it for close to two months and presented what I felt was a succinct picture of the situation. Whether or not Core Staff agreed is not the reason I subsequently decided to step down from my duties. This was before any outcome had been concluded and well before Norris left the community. 
 

I felt like I was treated like I didn’t know what I was talking about. I felt invalidated and that my understanding of the rules was wrong. I was cut off and not given time to speak when pulled into a meeting. I am a proud person and do not appreciate being treated like I am a child people don’t have patience for. At least, that was my experience at the time.

 

The way I see this is no single person as at fault as it has been a series of badly handled events and people waiting around for other people to talk about the elephant in the room. This falls on the people the report was made about too. The divisions were seen well before all this blew up.

 

I was in the middle of this storm. There are many things people have said here that I feel are simply not accurate nor respectful of those who opted to leave. making statements about things  after the fact does nothing to better what has happened.

 

It’s done. And I am sorry to comment again but this be the last I say on this matter and urge everyone to just move on. Bickering and pointing fingers is not going to bring people back here.

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14 hours ago, Gambit said:

And yes, i think the incentivicasion of recruitment (attaining zeus or admin priviledges with said medals on a webprofile insted of meritocracy at least thats what i heard from multiple credible sources,

This itn't true. From those medal, which all of us don't posess, you don't get any priviliges. It is just purely cosmetic on your profile-page (kind of like Steam-badges). Zeus priviliges only exist for those that host a mission as Zeus in that very mission and permanently for the two highest staff members as to sort out broken stuff. Admin priviliges are granted based on Leadership and if you're generally helping out.

Other than that, I feared a ranty text again when I read the first lines of your text but am gladfull you proved me wrong, so thanks for keeping your texts civil! :)
 

12 hours ago, MidnightRunner said:

Honestly, I'm sick of being polite

I tend to call out people if they are too rude and this time it's you @MidnightRunner. It doesn't matter how frustrating something is, stay polite in public channels.

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Artemis, I agree with that on all counts, and did not intend my comment to be interpreted as anything against you (either as a person or as staff).

 

However, I did take some action to avert elephants early, and became aware of the small herd long after they had set up camp. I do wish though that open communication had been more routine. 

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9 hours ago, Lindi said:

Players in question should have considered stepping down for the time playing on another community. 

Personally I agree, which is, in combination with time constrains, why I stepped down as a FA. However this is not a rule, hence you cannot ask this of people. Because if it isn't forbidden, you cannot punish people for it...And that comes from the guy who has "Stick to the rules!" as his AW-XML-remark.

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11 hours ago, Lindi said:

advertising another Arma 3 community using Discord rich presence mod

If that would be advertising, it would be advertising as well if you're on an AW server with a non AW XML/Tag, which clearly isn't recruiting (enforced by the fact that if it were recruiting, then AW would actually promote that themselves as there are rules in the XML-post outlining that you should behave well when using the AW XML on foreign servers = you are not discouraged to use the AW XML elsewhere).

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10 hours ago, Lindi said:

Oh geez how convenient Ahoy now does. Admins should perhaps consider their actions a little more carefully than the average joe, they are pillars of the community after all.

I generally agree, but if it is not forbidden it is allowed.

And I am a big fan of enforcing the rules exactly as written. Not any more, not any less.

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1 hour ago, Noah_Hero said:
13 hours ago, MidnightRunner said:

Honestly, I'm sick of being polite

I tend to call out people if they are too rude and this time it's you @MidnightRunner. It doesn't matter how frustrating something is, stay polite in public channels.

 

That's a fair account. I did lose my cool at times yesterday.

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10 hours ago, Lindi said:

Players in question should have considered stepping down for the time playing on another community

agree, but thats not on CS

 

10 hours ago, Lindi said:

Core staff could have discussed the situation at the start, maybe offered a "leave of absence" or just about anything but what actually happened.

did you ever discuss with regulars or plain members what was happening in a player ban? because its the same, just one or two levels beyont plain member.... on the same resonsibility and power level information should not be passed around, only a higher power can pass judgement...

 

 

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@Noah_Hero my sources and the information about attaining certain perks with those medals came from outside of AW, just to make it clear... i didnt take it as face value, i trust those who gave me the information, but im fully aware the information could be and very well might be either outdated, or second hand, hence i stressed the point of due process

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40 minutes ago, Gambit said:

@Noah_Hero my sources and the information about attaining certain perks with those medals came from outside of AW, just to make it clear... i didnt take it as face value, i trust those who gave me the information, but im fully aware the information could be and very well might be either outdated, or second hand, hence i stressed the point of due process

It's not just you @Gambitbut I think that is the main issue here. We have people we trust and when they tell us something we can take it as fact. There is alot of misinfo on both 'sides'. Which is why this thread is good and also bad. It's good to have transparency after discussions have been made but I completely agree with CS here that only the parties involved should have been informed.

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Alright, now that this has calmed down a bit: What can we learn from this? What steps can we take to avoid such situations in the future?

 

For instance, it seems to me(*) that some of the rules should be reconsidered, updated, adjusted and clarified (after appropriate community discussion).

I am also under the impression that it would be beneficial to define mandatory procedures and requirements for Admin Reports and Staff Demotions, ideally as part of the rules.

 

What do you think?

 

(*) I was not involved in this conflict and did not know it existed until yesterday.

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2 minutes ago, ansin11 said:

Alright, now that this has calmed down a bit: What can we learn from this? What steps can we take to avoid such situations in the future?

 

For instance, it seems to me(*) that some of the rules should be reconsidered, updated, adjusted and clarified (after appropriate community discussion).

I am also under the impression that it would be beneficial to define mandatory procedures and requirements for Admin Reports and Staff Demotions, ideally as part of the rules.

 

What do you think?

 

(*) I was not involved in this conflict and did not know it existed until yesterday.

Unfortunately that now seems like a necessity.

 

Realistically it should have been in place (and might have) from the start but it now seems inevitable that it is needed.

 

(I'm also in the same boat and don't know all the details as I can only see the fallout.)

 

As I was going to check out the discord before reconnecting and playing for a bit I noticed people were missing. And that should be the first tell. People shouldn't be missing. Just a thought.

 

That being said I hate to see old friends and people I respect fighting and bickering like this.

 

I really hope you all manage to find a solution here and return to something like it used to be.

 

Just my 2p

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A regular review if set rules is excellent in any case. The wonder of the internet is that it is everchanging and something new will always pop up. Times change and events arise, like this one, that will require us to review the rules we have set in place.

A clarification in regards to what constitutes recruitment, and how Admin reports are handled are some straight forward points.
I think some guidelines on how to address and convey these types of reports publicly should also be considered.

 

I'm very glad this post was here to air our grievances, listen to each other and now move forward from it. Props to everyone for their contribution. Your efforts are greatly appreciated! (by me, but I'm sure I'm not the only one.)

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The way this thread is going is grand. That's something to appreciate.

 

From what I read, a good part of the dissatisfaction about the unit stemmed from the mission makers for the drop in AW players. I understand that and I think I can relate to the feelings involved.

To slowly lead that into a suggestion, I would mention that I didn't play those missions because the themes didn't interest me. Vietnam is not my cup of tea, but I played a couple for the banter. Star Wars was three standard deviations removed from what I like, as was Halo. About Star Wars, at least, I let Siege know after a TS poke that it wasn't for me. I think a similar thing held true for other players, in that it just wasn't their interest.

 

So my suggestion is to have regular polls and meetings. Have polls to gauge interests in future campaign ideas. If you are satisfied with the responses even if small, everyone involved can set their expectations correctly. If you're not, lead that into a discussion about why the interest is low and be open-minded to drop or adjust the idea.

 

Similarly, in particular for staff, have regular meetings. Monthly.

Most people avoid confrontation. That's natural and probably relatable. To foster constructive confrontations, the absolute best you can do is to foster a safe, supported platform for communication. Allow members of staff, perhaps even Vet-FA, to submit points for an agenda prior to the meeting, then go through them. If there's nothing, grand, you've spent a few minutes to leave the meeting in the knowledge that you're right as rain.

 

In the vein of safe communication, foster good feedback philosophy. The gamenight debriefs are once again a marvellous illustration of that, but it can go further: Praise in public, criticise in private. People experienced in HR are rolling their eyes now.

Over the years, I have been told that I don't look like staff, that I'm too nice. Good! That means you haven't been invited to a private chat by me.

The rules only allow for so much direct action. You have your hackers and your teamkillers, but situations like the topic at hand are not rare, as uncomfortable as they are. The elephant in the room was difficult to navigate around, so I can wager it was easier to stay in one corner with the people already there.

 

Artemis noted that the division was apparent long ago. Sadly, it wasn't to me. I was frustrated with some AWE decisions, which I aired, and I just reckoned that some animosity from the sidelines stemmed from a disagreement about creative directions. There was some pushback to an unconventional gamenight idea, plus the minor squabble about event sign-ups.

 

The rest of it, the real of it, was not once brought to my attention besides a salient question by a dev in #mission-makers about using Discord Rich Presence of our own.

 

A meeting could have cleared this up many months ago. What's done is done, but just perhaps that's something to take forward.

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I agree that a review of the rules is needed, but i do not see need for us to massively change them. They are clear and consise. The issue, seems to have stemmed more from the investigation procedure carried out. The reason the report was filed was for the investigation to occur, it would be wrong of us to not question the report, from all angles and ask questions that people do not like because that is often where the truth lies. 

 

I agree that discussion is needed. But like everyone else here, Core was not aware it was a big deal as it was never actually discussed with us as a team until the report was filed.

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