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Balance/Nerf the tanks


TheScratch

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Hello,

long time no read from my side and i wasnt even considering posting here in the future but todays events changed my opinion ...

Its about the tanks.

 

As familiar player of I+A you may know my (hate-)relation to tanks in particular but dont get me wrong in the first place.

Tanks have a role in playing a support role to assist ground forces achieving objectives and goals eaiser/a bit less stressfull.

That totally alright about if the commander of the tank "acknowledges" his support role and does so on a "regular basis".

Sadly,this doesnt play out most of the times.

We saw tank commanders camping the tank spawns (to be first),take them for unrequested assaults all over Altis.

This is what in particular annoys me the most.

The ability for the tanks to be ANYWHERE on the island with armour and artillery, armour advantage renders enemy AT useless 90% of times and they rearm in minutes with a supply truck and be back in the fight almost instant. 

 

I might give you a insight of the event that made me post this (read the spoiler+check the picture):

image.thumb.png.729fa26d9aa31a49ddc3c2633f438a0b.png

 

What's the point in having marksman slots, medics, grenadiers and whatever in this game when a single tank can dominate the mission so easily.

We might even never leave base again !

 

Actually,i m speechless since that thing got added and even more in particular since BI tweaked the tank capabilities.

In this condition yet it´s a silly and gamebreaking move.

ARMA is about putting work in a mission (generalisation) - achieving goals the easy way is neither rewarding nor thrilling to none of (the more) experienced users.

Or when was the last time you told a m8 about that thrilling tank assault raid you witnessed while being boot on the ground with nothing to care about as only infantry is your only threat ?


 

 

 

 

In short - i vouch for several things to make tanks better or everyone:

 

    reduce tank shell count to 30 total.
    raise service time (to min 15min)
    consider cut´ing tank count actual
    enforce a "maximum use time" of tanks (limit it to 1 user for 2h,then apply a 2h wait time)
    thin out chance of side reward to be tank
    change setup of AT to that new AT to guarantee a solid AT threat by it

 

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1 minute ago, TheScratch said:

We saw tank commanders camping the tank spawns

There's only 2 tank spawns in fixed locations, being FOB last stand and FOB marathon.  Both FOBs are pretty rare.  Any other tanks that spawn spawn as side mission rewards.  Where they will spawn at the side mission that's been successfully completed.

 

2 minutes ago, TheScratch said:

The ability for the tanks to be ANYWHERE on the island with armour and artillery, armour advantage renders enemy AT useless 90% of times and they rearm in minutes with a supply truck and be back in the fight almost instant. 

For starters, tanks need to drive places.  Infantry can get flown in.  Meaning that infantry could've taken out 90% of an AOs armour before the first tank arrives.  Next, most tanks don't drive around with an ammo truck (which only spawn at main base) following them.  They have to RTB to rearm.

 

4 minutes ago, TheScratch said:

ARMA is about putting work in a mission (generalisation) - achieving goals the easy way is neither rewarding nor thrilling to none of (the more) experienced users.

Or when was the last time you told a m8 about that thrilling tank assault raid you witnessed while being boot on the ground with nothing to care about as only infantry is your only threat ?

Are you saying that if you're with 3 guys in a teamspeak or discord you don't find it rewarding to operate a tank to the best of its ability?

 

5 minutes ago, TheScratch said:

reduce tank shell count to 30 total.
    raise service time (to min 15min)
    consider cut´ing tank count actual
    enforce a "maximum use time" of tanks (limit it to 1 user for 2h,then apply a 2h wait time)
    thin out chance of side reward to be tank
    change setup of AT to that new AT to guarantee a solid AT threat by it

Your first point is made useless according to your own arguments as you said that they rearm in minutes with a supply truck and are, again according to you, back in the fight within minutes.  The second one is certainly possible, not even that difficult.  And how would you suggest I cut tank count?  Most of the time we don't have a respawning tank.  And tanks are certainly not common side mission rewards.

How would a maximum use time be enforced?  All scripting ways I can think of are easily avoidable by those who know how.  And you made this event in response to people who know how to do these things. 

And again, the chances of a tank as a side reward aren't that great.  Here are the chances from last time I calculated them: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RCt8AbSXH8jScMoPbRL4Hw02ALUdFh9uoETMyQZq58M/edit?usp=sharing

AFAIK nothing major has changed about it since then.  As you can see there's about a 8.5% chance that a tank spawns as a side mission reward. 

And what do you mean by your last point?  Enemy armour in the AO scales to player count, the more players the more armour.  I could make it so I check for specific slots but that's not ideal script wise.  If you're interested here are the current numbers:

Spoiler

case (_amountOfPlayers <= 10):{
  _MBTs = 1;
  _AAVics = 1;
  _IFVs = 1;
  _Cars = 1;
  _mainInf = 3;
  _AAinf = 1;
  _ATinf = 1;
  _recon = 1;
  _helis = 0;
  _jet = 0;
};
case (_amountOfPlayers > 10 && _amountOfPlayers <= 20):{
  _MBTs = 1;
  _AAVics = (1 + round (random 1));
  _IFVs = (1 + round (random 1));
  _Cars = (1 + round (random 1));
  _mainInf = 5;
  _AAinf = 1;
  _ATinf = 1;
  _recon = 2;
  _helis = 1;
  _jet = 0;
};
case (_amountOfPlayers > 20 && _amountOfPlayers <= 30):{
  _MBTs = 1;
  _AAVics = (1 + round (random 1));
  _IFVs = (1 + round (random 1));
  _Cars = (1 + round (random 2));
  _mainInf = 5;
  _AAinf = 2;
  _ATinf = 2;
  _recon = 1;
  _helis = 1;
  _jet = 0;
};
case (_amountOfPlayers > 30 && _amountOfPlayers <= 40):{
  _MBTs = 1;
  _AAVics = 2;
  _IFVs = 2;
  _Cars = 3;
  _mainInf = 6;
  _AAinf = 2;
  _ATinf = 2;
  _recon = 2;
  _helis = selectRandom[1,2];
  _jet = 1;
};
case (_amountOfPlayers > 40 && _amountOfPlayers <= 50):{
  _MBTs = 1;
  _AAVics = (2 + round (random 1));
  _IFVs = (2 + round (random 1));
  _Cars = (3 + round (random 1));
  _mainInf = 7;
  _AAinf = 2;
  _ATinf = 2;
  _recon = 3;
  _helis = 2;
  _jet = 1;
};
case (_amountOfPlayers > 50):{
  _MBTs = 2;
  _AAVics = (2 + round (random 2));
  _IFVs = (2 + round (random 2));
  _Cars = (3 + round (random 2));
  _mainInf = 8;
  _AAinf = 3;
  _ATinf = 3;
  _recon = 4;
  _helis = 2;
  _jet = 2;
};

 

 

 

Other than the service times for tanks being increased (which is easily avoidable by those who know how to) I don't see anything that is wrong and needs changing.  You'll always have certain players who are exceptionally good at what they do.  Doesn't mean we should take away stuff from everyone because of it.

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Quote

As familiar player of I+A you may know my (hate-)relation to tanks in particular but dont get me wrong in the first place.

Who are you?

Quote

TheScratch

Your forum name along with the screenshot included makes me think you are posting this as you don't like that TheScar has a high score. To be honest it looks like he is having a slow day.

 

Quote

We saw tank commanders camping the tank spawns (to be first)

I assume you are referring to the gorgon spawn at FOB guardian(if you count that as a tank), marshal and cheetah spawn at FOB martian(again if you count them as a tank) and the slammer spawns at FOB last stand and marathon as the rest of any tanks that spawn are rewards from side missions that players work for and the rewards spawn at the side mission so the players doing the work for the tanks get them. I don't know the chances of by heart but i know tanks are already a fairly rare reward.

Quote

take them for unrequested assaults all over Altis.

There is nothing to say they cant and nothing wrong with them doing so.

 

Quote

The ability for the tanks to be ANYWHERE on the island with armour and artillery, armour advantage renders enemy AT useless 90% of times and they rearm in minutes with a supply truck and be back in the fight almost instant. 

The enemy AT is in no way useless, all it takes if for a tank to wonder into its range or for the AT solider to walk into range and you have AT missiles flying at you and destroying you. This is assuming that the tactic is to sit on a hill out the way of as much danger as possible if its not that tactic then the AT comes flying very fast.

The tanks do rearm fast if there is an ammo truck out in the field near by. does not happen that much unless there is communication and teamwork to get one out for the tank otherwise its a long drive back to main base or a FOB then all the way back out.

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30 minutes ago, TheScratch said:

The ability for the tanks to be ANYWHERE on the island with armour and artillery, armour advantage renders enemy AT useless 90% of times and they rearm in minutes with a supply truck and be back in the fight almost instant.

@Stanhope Add atleast 1 heavy AT squad per AO (CSAT boyes with Voronas). Vorona is much more effective, it can 1-shot a T-100 + you can't hear a missile warning like with titan (its wire guided)

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6 minutes ago, TheScratch said:

;)

1st up, that's a 3 year old topic, a lot has changed since then. 

Next, it's explicitly mentioned in the rules that the primary role of pilots isn't to do cas but to provide support (rule 4.3.1 & 4.4.1), changes where made to the mission to reflect these rules.

Additionally, not all the things asked for in that topic where implemented and that topic suggests a lot of the same changes you're suggesting.  And the changes that were implemented then are the same changes I don't mind implementing now.  To get into specifics:

Spoiler
  • Raise the respawn timers

Current respawn timer for respawning tanks is set at 30 minutes, the respawn time for one of the jets is also set at 30 minutes, the other at 45.  There are 5 pilots and 45 infantry, naturally the respawn time for tanks is gonna be lower to give more people a shot.

  • Raise service time

As I said in my initial reply, I'm certainly willing to implement that.  But as you already said, this can be easily avoided by those who know how

  • Cutting amount of jets/UAVs

If we have an FOB that spawns a tank there are 1-3 respawning jets and 3 respawning UAVs.  If we have both FOBs that spawn a tank there'll be 2-3 respawning jets, 1 respawning cas helo and 3 respawning UAVs

  • Enforce maximum use time

As said 3 years ago:

Quote

This is very hard to track and enforce

And I said the exact same thing here.

  • Thin out chances of jets/uavs

I can't recall what the chances where back then, nor do I have the mission files from back then so I can't go check.  So I cannot comment on how this compares to that topic.

  • Change the AA battery

Doesn't seem relevant at all to this topic.

 

4 minutes ago, Kacper said:

@Stanhope Add atleast 1 heavy AT squad per AO (CSAT boyes with Voronas). Vorona is much more effective, it can 1-shot a T-100 + you can't hear a missile warning like with titan (its wire guided)

I don't know for sure that you do not get these if it's AI firing them but I'll see about adding these.  Although these are still AI and are not effective anymore if you're more than 1km away from them.  So their effectiveness against the people OP is complaining about is questionable.

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Wrong place unfortunately @TheScratch, you won't find any of what you'd prefer here I reckon.

 

There are select few who will do these things to max the leaderboards, whether this is for personal fun or a large ego and attention grab.

 

I think I&A4 will have limited armored usage, as there will be actual armor slots and armor will be most likely be expensive to use and overall more limited. I have no idea when I&A4 will coem out though, so you might be waiting a while for that.

 

I can sort of read where your getting at with this post, and in part I do agree with what your thinking, but chances are these points are immediately nulified. Just keep it cool and carry on.

 

Keep your chin up and if you have any problems with what players are doing, speak it out with them or active staff. There is a posibility that if fun is being ruined for a wider audience of people than the one person sat on a hill with a tank or 65 AT rockets, then things can be rectified to fit that wider audience. At least that's how I imagine things would go.

 

Good luck and have fun, there is fun to be had here, even if you gotta work for it!

 

If you prefer teamwork, general cohesion or more of a balanced level playing field then speak with me, I might have some advice.

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Hi, I can consider myself as a newbie in ARMA, and still I think you are totally wrong.

 

Firstly, you don't want to nerf tanks, you want to nerf TheScar. and I don't know if you ever spent time with that guy, he is not just hopping in tanks and blowing up targets, that guy has millions of strategies for millions of cases and situations. That score is not there just because he has a tank, its because of his experiences and skills.

 

Also he got that score because he starts playing early in the mornings until afternoons, sometimes even I get a better score than scar if I spend the same amount of time, and without a tank.

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1 hour ago, Berker said:

Hi, I can consider myself as a newbie in ARMA, and still I think you are totally wrong.

 

Firstly, you don't want to nerf tanks, you want to nerf TheScar. and I don't know if you ever spent time with that guy, he is not just hopping in tanks and blowing up targets, that guy has millions of strategies for millions of cases and situations. That score is not there just because he has a tank, its because of his experiences and skills.

 

Also he got that score because he starts playing early in the mornings until afternoons, sometimes even I get a better score than scar if I spend the same amount of time, and without a tank.

 

Jesus, why don't you just marry him.

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An argument can be made against AT soldiers too as you have the option of filling up a vehicle with ammo and sitting on a hill, had it happen many times, we get to the AO only to find that there are no targets, let me tell you that it is more annoying since at times you drive for so long and finally get to the AO and you have nothing to do but sit there and observe and then tanks have to deal with driving to the next AO where a similar scenario plays out. I think it's pretty balanced at the moment, either can have the upper hand.

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